(09-26-2016, 09:19 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Well, Cars, if your pithy "the public needs to be trained to follow PO commands or face the consequences!" wasn't in response to the two cases we're discussing or ones like them, you got some chatter to remind you what we're talking about. I don't charge by the word, so it doesn't cost you anything.

Anyway, it's not a political/partisan issue or a pro-police vs. anti-police issue. There are plenty of Republicans, Democrats and Independents who are committed to much better screening and training of POs in order to reduce deaths at the hands of cops who weren't defending their lives or the lives of others when they killed members of the community they were sworn to protect (and often later created false narratives to cover their asses and suffer no consequences).

Police aren't legally allowed or justified in killing people for not obeying 'P.O. commands' (whether that real or perceived lack of compliance is due to criminal attitude, confusion, disability or irrational fear on the part of the officer). They can only use lethal force in defense of their lives or the lives of others. Cops need to be better at distinguishing between those situations and handling them appropriately.

We need much better screening and training of police officers. Your call for more conditioning of citizens to accept that any failure to obey PO Orders has predictable consequences, including death, only increases the problem.

If you charged by the word, I couldn't afford to talk to you!

(09-26-2016, 09:31 AM)Carsman Wrote: If you charged by the word, I couldn't afford to talk to you!

Why are cops, who are supposed to be trained, can panic and act on impulse and excuses are often made for them, the biggest one being they have only a nano second to act and yet when an untrained civilian has guns pointed at them they are supposed to remain calm and immediately follow orders that are being shouted at them. Why are they viewed so differently?

(09-26-2016, 12:15 PM)Duchess Wrote:

Why are cops, who are supposed to be trained, can panic and act on impulse and excuses are often made for them, the biggest one being they have only a nano second to act and yet when an untrained civilian has guns pointed at them they are supposed to remain calm and immediately follow orders that are being shouted at them. Why are they viewed so differently?

In my opinion, the people who always automatically defend and make (or make up) excuses for police officers are emotion-based and/or fear-based, instead of ration-based.

Speaking from my interactions and observations, the ones who create justifications and/or blame the victims in even the most egregious examples of wrongful killings by police are stuck in a mindset that all people (even kids) who get hurt and/or killed by police must be bad people or must have done something to deserve what they got. While that sometimes is true, it's far from always true.

But, people with that mindset are conditioned and don't have the interest or ability, in my opinion, to consider the concepts of case-by-case evaluation, probable cause, self-defense, due process, justifiable use of deadly force, systematic discrimination and corruption, militarization of police, etc.

"Police officer good public hero; person killed by police officer menacing thug" -- that's simple and comfortable thinking for such people to apply to every fatality at the hands of police, even though it's irrational, false, and enables continued unnecessary deaths to loved ones of all ages and colors, all across the country.

HotD, just make sure that you're equally outraged when a white guy gets killed by the cops.

That's all we ask O Great Purveyor of Truth.

Why the snotty attitude?

Because Cars had a valid point.

A lot of people do refuse to comply with police commands, which compounds things.

Not saying it warrants a death sentence, but everything escalates at that point.

According to HotD, police are supposed to just wait these folks out until they decide they want to do something.

She also brought up Tamir Rice again.

Tamir looked like a full grown man, and was brandishing a gun that looked real.

Most people regret that he's dead, but he put himself in a position for something bad to happen.

Back to HotD... if someone doesn't subscribe to her narrative, that person is ignorant and/or racist.

There's more than one correct viewpoint in these matters.

PS- imo, some of these cops are clearly criminally negligent.

But not all.

(09-26-2016, 04:02 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Because Cars had a valid point.

A lot of people do refuse to comply with police commands, which compounds things.

Not saying it warrants a death sentence, but everything escalates at that point.

According to HotD, police are supposed to just wait these folks out until they decide they want to do something.

She also brought up Tamir Rice again.

Tamir looked like a full grown man, and was brandishing a gun that looked real.

Most people regret that he's dead, but he put himself in a position for something bad to happen.

Back to HotD... if someone doesn't subscribe to her narrative, that person is ignorant and/or racist.

There's more than one correct viewpoint in these matters.

PS- imo, some of these cops are clearly criminally negligent.

But not all.

It's her MO.

If you charged by the word, I couldn't afford to talk to you!






Word TLDNR.

(09-26-2016, 01:24 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: HotD, just make sure that you're equally outraged when a white guy gets killed by the cops.

That's all we ask O Great Purveyor of Truth.

Hitting the bottle today, MS?

If not, why are you asking me to express the same distress when white guys (or women or children) get killed wrongfully when I already do that and have done that for years? You can see that clearly in my comments posted throughout this thread, the Officer Down thread, and a few other threads as well.

As for your second bullshit-riddled post:

1. Cars posted about how ignorant citizens need to be trained to obey whatever cops command or suffer the consequences, including death (which is illegal police action, unless there's a real or reasonable perception of life endangerment). The two cases under discussion when he posted that comment pertained to (1) someone who was shot when he did appear to be complying and was not posing a threat to anyone's life, and (2) someone who had a documented brain injury which the cops were told about by his wife -- he may or may not have threatened the cops (the chief says the video doesn't show him pointing a gun at the cops, but maybe he did) and thus I don't have an opinion about whether the shooting was justified. But I don't blame the deceased or anyone for not following commands IF they don't have the mental capacity to understand what's happening.

No one, including me, has ever said cops don't have the right and responsibility to shoot or otherwise use force against people who are threatening the cops' lives or the lives of others (or can REASONABLY be perceived to be an imminent threat to them). But, obviously, not every person killed (even justifiably) failed to obey PO commands, and not everybody who fails to obey PO commands is presenting a threat to cops or other people and can be legally/justifiably killed for it.

What part of that offends you, MS? Why are you claiming that I brought up Tamir Rice specifically again? I didn't, read back. Tamir is one of several, including Andy Lopez near me, which still very much saddens me. Who did I call a racist? Nobody, that's who. As for ignorance, it's rampant alright, mostly by choice in my opinion. Less so here than in general, in my observation. I didn't call you or Cars ignorant and I didn't post a narrative. I posted facts and my opinion based upon those facts. Read back.

2. I know facts and truth aren't for everyone, MS, but I'm not gonna hold off embracing them and expressing my opinions based upon them, whether you like it or not. Likewise, I wouldn't expect or like you or Cars or anyone else to stop expressing your emotion-based opinions even when I disagree with them.

Bottom line: The mature and able-minded public is very well aware these days that obeying PO commands is the best way to avoid police action against them, including brutality and lethal force. Some people are criminally unconcerned about that, threaten the lives of cops and others, and they die for it. That's their choice and there's no tears from me in those cases; better them than the cops or innocent people.

Some people comply right away, don't threaten anyone, and still get killed by scared and/or untrained and/or corrupt cops. Other people don't have the maturity or mental capacity to understand what's happening when they're taken by surprise or commanded by cops, and lethal force is used when there were other approaches/tactics available that might have prevented an unnecessary death. Implying that those victims suffered the consequences because those victims weren't trained in policing is off-base and only prolongs the systemic problem.

So, I'm glad to see a stronger push for more police training in differentiating between those circumstances, along with de-escalation training. I think that's the key factor in reducing unnecessary police killings of white, black, brown, red...people of all ages, and I think it's something that police officers deserve, so as few cops as possible are harmed and imprisoned. Sue me.

That was a big fuckin' post and I loved it!

I've never minded wordy posts. I have scrolled on by dumb wordy posts though but I always take the time to read posts that interest me, no matter their size. It's a choice, to each their own.

(09-26-2016, 05:43 PM)Duchess Wrote:

That was a big fuckin' post and I loved it!

I've never minded wordy posts. I have scrolled on by dumb wordy posts though but I always take the time to read posts that interest me, no matter their size. It's a choice, to each their own.

I feel the same. I like it when people take the time to explain their points and I read all the longer posts too unless they're by lazy-minded people who just cut and paste opinions snagged from somewhere else.

I wouldn't expend the energy to engage these days in an in-depth exchange with people I didn't like and respect. They and others can read or scroll as they see fit; no problem. Fortunately, nothing here is required reading.

HotD, you make a lot of good points.

You usually do and I agree with many of your viewpoints.

I will continue to believe this about police:

It's a difficult job that could end in death on a given day for many different reasons.

Social media and body cams/dash cams have brought to light lately instances in which scared/poorly trained/malicious cops have either performed poorly or were criminally negligent.

I have contended for some time now that those cops should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

But, I also contend that the vast majority (if not all) of these cases involve some sort of criminal either resisting or fleeing cops.

Law abiding citizens are not being stopped in their cars or pulled from their homes and senselessly shot.

Now, some of these cases to me look very open and shut as to an officers guilt: NYC taking down the guy on the sidewalk, the guy fleeing the cop I believe in NC or SC, and there are a couple more.

For me, however, each case is unique, and it starts with why was someone stopped and how did that person follow the officers orders?

It's not all black and white and I still believe that the overwhelming (95%+) percentage of officers are competent, not scared and would willingly protect you, me, Glenn and Lamarr if they were called on to do so.

I don't mind wordy posts if they're worth reading, but often ²⁄₃ of it is bullshit that could have been relayed in a few sentences effectively. That's the crap I don't bother reading. It's a choice I make. My time is valuable.

(09-26-2016, 06:26 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: I will continue to believe this about police:

It's a difficult job that could end in death on a given day for many different reasons.

I agree with you.

(09-26-2016, 06:26 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Social media and body cams/dash cams have brought to light lately instances in which scared/poorly trained/malicious cops have either performed poorly or were criminally negligent.

I have contended for some time now that those cops should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I agree with you on this too.

(09-26-2016, 06:26 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: But, I also contend that the vast majority (if not all) of these cases involve some sort of criminal either resisting or fleeing cops.

Some are, but I don't see the vast majority of the people who are killed in the cam footage as people in the commission of violent crimes or threatening cops at the time of their deaths. While I can see how it was reasonable for the cops to perceive a life threat in some of the cases, not in others.

(09-26-2016, 06:26 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Law abiding citizens are not being stopped in their cars or pulled from their homes and senselessly shot.

That's true. But, some are being stopped in their cars or approached by their cars and then shot dead when it's not clear they were doing anything wrong or illegal at all and there were other tactics/options available to the cops.

Philando Castille, Terence Crutcher, Corey Jones, etc... Fortunately, it looks like more of those negligent/lying cops are being charged (two out of the three of the cited cases, so far).

(09-26-2016, 06:26 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: Now, some of these cases to me look very open and shut as to an officers guilt: NYC taking down the guy on the sidewalk, the guy fleeing the cop I believe in NC or SC, and there are a couple more.

For me, however, each case is unique, and it starts with why was someone stopped and how did that person follow the officers orders?

It's not all black and white and I still believe that the overwhelming (95%+) percentage of officers are competent, not scared and would willingly protect you, me, Glenn and Lamarr if they were called on to do so.

Yeah, I'm case by case in my evaluations too, though I might not always come to the same conclusion as you. The reason the people were stopped/approached if they weren't in the commission of a violent crime, along with any previous run-ins with the law, are irrelevant to the use of deadly force for me.

I still believe that most cops are goods cops and I'm glad more of them are voicing their desire/support for better training, body cams, and the weeding out of bad cops who aren't fit to be police officers in the first place.

But, I've grown to believe it's far less than 95% of cops who are really good ones. That's just my impression and not a fact or anything that can be quantified.

(09-22-2016, 04:50 PM)sally Wrote: I think what he meant by saying he looks like a "bad dude" is that he looks big and tough. Either way that cop is a fucking idiot as well as the dumb bitch that shot the poor guy.

Officer Betty Shelby pleaded 'not guilty' to first degree manslaughter on Friday, but I think she's going down.

Her attorney says that she fatally shot Crutcher because he didn't get down on his knees when she told him to do so and so she feared he was going to kill her.

Shelby now claims that she wasn't even aware that several other cops had arrived with sirens blaring, that Crutcher had just been tased by another officer right in front of her, that another officer had a gun drawn on Crutcher, or that Crutcher was not resisting or doing anything aggressive when she pulled the trigger.

According to Shelby and her attorney, she was so stressed that she experienced "audio exclusion" and blocked out all the sounds around her. Apparently, the bitch went dumb and blind too -- otherwise, even if she did go temporarily deaf due to fear, it doesn't explain the shooting.

While research confirms that some people do experience auditory exclusion in stressful situations, Lori Brown, a professor of sociology at Meredith College in Raleigh, North Carolina, said she believes it’s dangerous to think a police officer would use auditory exclusion as a possible explanation for killing a man who was not doing anything aggressive.

“My response would be to focus on the research on implicit bias that, sadly, most of us have, even African-Americans, about black men, especially a larger black man and the fact that we tend to see them as threatening even when their behavior is in no way aggressive,” Brown said.

Shelby, 42, faces between four years and life in prison if convicted. She surrendered to authorities after being charged last week and is currently free on $50,000 bond.

Story: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/terence-crut...on-lawyer/

Woman tend to freak out, the fatality ratio of women to men is way higher in skydiving.

(10-04-2016, 02:17 PM)BigMark Wrote: Woman tend to freak out, the fatality ratio of women to men is way higher in skydiving.

That may be true for skydiving Biggie, you sexist, but it's false when it comes to policing.

Female officers discharge their weapons at far lower rates and are more effective at negotiating better and less lethal outcomes, even though citizens are not more likely to use less force when officers are female.

In 2002, the National Center for Women in Policing completed a landmark study that revealed marked differences in policing based on gender. It found male officers, who make up 88 percent of the U.S. police force, are eight and a half times more likely than female officers to face sustained charges of excessive force and to discharge their weapons...

In the years since that study was published, during which time the number of women on police forces has barely changed, follow up studies, both national and international, have repeatedly confirmed these findings.

Ref: http://womensenews.org/2016/04/would-few...ere-women/