(06-18-2018, 04:28 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(06-18-2018, 04:05 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: But wait... There's more! Guess who signed the law that says children of illegal immigrants can be separated from their parents? Wait for it... You favorite President Bill Clinton! Oh how quickly the world forgot about poor little Elian. Priceless.

So I did a small google search for Clinton or Obama doing this and I can't find anything. Could you post a link so I can read about this? Thanks!

There is a link posted upthread from 2014 (Obama).

(06-18-2018, 04:28 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(06-18-2018, 04:05 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: But wait... There's more! Guess who signed the law that says children of illegal immigrants can be separated from their parents? Wait for it... You favorite President Bill Clinton! Oh how quickly the world forgot about poor little Elian. Priceless.

So I did a small google search for Clinton or Obama doing this and I can't find anything. Could you post a link so I can read about this? Thanks!

And here's your boy Bill
https://www.cato.org/publications/commen...n-gonzalez

(06-18-2018, 04:38 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: And here's your boy Bill
https://www.cato.org/publications/commen...n-gonzalez

I don't understand what Bill Clinton & Elian Gonzalez have to do with what is going on now. What equates the two?

(06-18-2018, 04:45 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(06-18-2018, 04:38 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: And here's your boy Bill
https://www.cato.org/publications/commen...n-gonzalez

I don't understand what Bill Clinton & Elian Gonzalez have to do with what is going on now. What equates the two?

Another link? Okay... https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11515132/i...mmigration

(06-18-2018, 04:52 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: Another link? Okay... https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11515132/i...mmigration

Deportation? Okay. Obama deported too, a lot. I still don't get how you are comparing deportation to what is going on now.

Obama ripped the children from their parents arms and weaponized buses to take them all over the United States to never see their parents again. Besides why didn't they seek asylum in Mexico? They have that you know, and do it all the time. Here is an answer. They would not get welfare or social security.

Trump does not own this and they are getting treated better now than they were for a long time and they are not getting shipped off to the far corners of America to burden towns, cities and states. This is pure yellow journalism. When the parents end up getting deported they take their children with them. It takes a few weeks but this is what happens when they come in illegally.

Again pure yellow journalism. Anything to attack Trump if it wasn't this it would be something else. When they first started this crap they were showing pictures of the Obama era and a few pics were from a protest.

(06-18-2018, 05:03 PM)Duchess Wrote:

(06-18-2018, 04:52 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: Another link? Okay... https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11515132/i...mmigration

Deportation? Okay. Obama deported too, a lot. I still don't get how you are comparing deportation to what is going on now.

The link I posted made it pretty clear. The 1996 law allowed MORE people to be deported. If you can't see that more people being deported put us in this current situation, then I really don't know what to tell you? It's pretty clear to me that if mom and dad get deported we are going to have children separated from their parents. Once the kids are here alone... We have to do something with them don't we? Let's not forget the kids that come here illegally as well. We have to do something with them too don't we?

(06-18-2018, 05:58 PM)Maggot Wrote: Obama ripped the children from their parents arms and weaponized buses to take them all over the United States to never see their parents again. Besides why didn't they seek asylum in Mexico? They have that you know, and do it all the time. Here is an answer. They would not get welfare or social security.

Trump does not own this and they are getting treated better now than they were for a long time and they are not getting shipped off to the far corners of America to burden towns, cities and states. This is pure yellow journalism. When the parents end up getting deported they take their children with them. It takes a few weeks but this is what happens when they come in illegally.

Again pure yellow journalism. Anything to attack Trump if it wasn't this it would be something else. When they first started this crap they were showing pictures of the Obama era and a few pics were from a protest.

Spot on.

If you have any evidence to back your claims that the kids sent to Nogales in 2014 were not actually unaccompanied minors but instead minors who were forcibly removed from their parents, Gunnar, back it up with a source link. There are hundreds of verified sources contradicting your claim.

If you have any evidence to back your claims that Obama evilly ripped accompanied minors from their parents and weaponized them, Maggot, back it up with a source link. There are hundreds of verified sources contradicting your claim.

In the meantime......... here are some facts to keep this thread from becoming a haven of bullshit revisionist history.

(continued)

In 2014, a lot of migrant kids were bused from the Texas border to Nogales, Arizona due to capacity issues. There were upwards of 40,000 Central American unaccompanied minors (mostly teens) crossing the border at the time and Arizona had more space and experience to handle the influx.

Some unaccompanied minors from other various border crossing locations were also bused to facilities throughout the United States to be housed while awaiting immigration hearings; there were tens of thousands of them fleeing to the U.S. There were also some migrant parents with accompanied minors on those buses.

And, there was outrage alright; outrage from the far right, dipshit bigots, and fearful locals who didn't want 'those people' coming to their towns. Screaming adults -- some of them politicians -- hurled insults and worse at buses full of migrants who had fled gangs and violence seeking shelter in the U.S. It was ugly shit. We covered it plenty upthread.

Once again: what's happening now is not the same as what was happening then. Families crossing together as the norm is a new trend; it has only overtaken unaccompanied minor border crossings in the last couple of years.

This has been repeatedly stated in this thread recently -- it's a fact and is not a difficult concept to grasp Gunnar and Maggot.: THE POLICY THAT TRUMP AND SESSIONS PUT IN PLACE IN APRIL 2018 IS NEW, IT'S A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY WHICH CAUSES THE REMOVAL OF CHILDREN WHO CROSSED THE BORDER WITH THEIR PARENTS ('ACCOMPANIED MINORS') BECAUSE THE PARENTS ARE NOW BEING SENT TO FEDERAL JAILS. SEPARATING ACCOMPANIED MINORS FROM THEIR PARENTS AT THE BORDER IS THE RULE NOW, NOT THE RARE EXCEPTION IT WAS IN THE BUSH II AND OBAMA ADMINISTRATIONS.

Trump has taken parent-accompanied minors and turned them into unaccompanied minors. Kids as young as 4 years old are being forcibly taken from their parents and sent to detention centers previously reserved for kids (mostly teens) who crossed the border alone.

During the Bush II and Obama administrations, migrant families were almost always kept together. Kids were not taken from their parents in the vast majority of cases because it was deemed cruel. Most migrant parents who crossed illegally were not sent to federal jails to await prosecution on the misdemeanor charge; that typically only happened when the migrant parents were repeat offenders or criminals. NOW, mandatory jail and prosecution for all is the rule.

Until April of this year, accompanied kids were deported with their parents, or the parents and children went to immigration court together. Again....separating migrant children from their parents was previously the exception, NOW it's the rule.

So, if you guys like and support the new zero-tolerance / family-separation policy.............that's your prerogative.

And, you can just own it.

There's no need to falsely claim the new policy is a historical one, nor to ignorantly claim that being removed from their parents and placed in a detention facility is somehow an upgrade for these kids.

(06-18-2018, 11:43 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: And, you can just own it.

I'm not seeing anyone do that, not even the people enforcing it. I see a lot of bullshit justifying and outright lying and then there's the ol' "but they have food & towels" crap. Personally, I wouldn't give a fuck if they were being kept at the goddamn Ritz-Carlton, they were taken from their parents who don't know where their children are.

Zero tolerance is the only way to stop immigration that damages American communities, it's a romantic way to look at it, refugees go to small towns to be absorbed into the community that is of course until it backfires.

Lewiston Maine

It was an otherwise pleasant evening in Maine when two dozen Somali youth swarmed and attacked two local residents in Kennedy Park last Thursday evening.

The Somali mob attacked around 7:45 pm, just as the sun was setting on this historic city park in the heart of Maine’s second largest city.

A local mother recorded as a mob of teens and children, boys and girls as young as nine years old, brandishing wooden bats and other objects, along with fists, feet and sheer numbers to attack the two non-Somali defenders. At one point you can even here one of the hoodlums repeatedly daring the woman to, “stop me, b**ch.”

Lewiston Police tell Maine First Media one of the victims was taken to the hospital with minor injuries. However, no charges were filed.

After looking at the Lewiston mess I've come to believe that when refugees are sent to towns across America the key to getting them assimilated is to not send them "en mass" Send maybe 10-20 families at the most and spread them out maybe 10 at the most. When they go together 300-600 at a time they tend to re-create their previous lifestyles and do not become part of society.

(06-18-2018, 11:43 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: So, if you guys like and support the new zero-tolerance / family-separation policy.............that's your prerogative.

And, you can just own it.

There's no need to falsely claim the new policy is a historical one, nor to ignorantly claim that being removed from their parents and placed in a detention facility is somehow an upgrade for these kids.

If a zero tolerance policy protects just one child from being reunited with an adult that is not any relation to the adult and is a threat to the child so be it. I honesty do not believe the children are being treated poorly as many news organizations have been portraying. That is my feeling and I believe and trust the border organization to do the right thing. It's not like there are a bunch of criminals watching over these kids. And they are not going to do them any harm.

Showing video of a toddler crying is photo ops, every single child cries sometimes they cry for over an hour. It's nothing new and is expected.
I trust the detention facility, what I do not trust are the people bringing children to the border, crossing illegally and using children for their own gain.
If they go to a port of entry it is not as bad, but if they scuffle across the border through an area that is not policed then they are committing a crime.

That's my position for what its worth. And it won't change a thing.

I understand that you support the new Trump/Sessions zero-tolerance policy, Mags. Thank you for confirming it directly; I know you're not alone. I believe the policy is probably very popular with Trump's core base and the Ann Coulters of the world.

The reasons you just stated to rationalize your support don't make sense though. You still appear unable to understand the difference between an 'accompanied minor' and an 'unaccompanied minor', Mags. So, I won't explain it yet again. I'll just point out an obvious related concept: there is no reunification necessary when the family is not separated in the first place, as was the case until April 2018.

In any case, even if the government officials in charge of the detained children are all decent people, of which you are confident.............forcibly removing children from parents is traumatizing for both. And, according to all the first-hand reports, those government officials are prohibited from hugging or comforting crying and distressed children, which includes toddlers. That lack of human contact and affection impacts children's psyches and development (as confirmed by a myriad of studies over the decades).

Also concerning is the fact that the spike in family crossings combined with the new zero-tolerance policy has resulted in thousands of children unexpectedly being sent to detention centers; detention centers which were not prepared in advance and are now understaffed. They will need to quickly add more staff as the number of detained children continues to grow. You may be confident about the character and screening of all those staff members, but I've heard no details or assurances to lead me to the same conclusion.

Let's see if the Republican congresspersons objecting to the new Trump/Sessions family separation policy can get their bill to stop it passed. They have support from Democrat congresspersons, making it a bipartisan push. Based on yesterday's comments by Trump and Nielsen, it doesn't look likely they'll succeed however. Trump and company are defending, deflecting, and digging their heels in when it comes to continuing the practice of family separation, regardless of the push back by most of the American public, politicians, religious organizations, the U.N., all the living first ladies, child development specialists, etc.

I'd like to know, as I think I mentioned here last week, where the girls and youngest children are being detained (the government has only allowed limited press access to young male migrants). Yesterday, Nielsen was asked about the girls and youngest children. She said she did not know where they were. That's unacceptable and unbelievable to me. I'm glad the press is doing its job and trying to get that information to the American people.

I'd also like to know the plan to reunify children and parents once the parents have been prosecuted, if there even exists a reunification plan under Trump's and Session's new zero-tolerance policy.

And.............just after posting the comment above, this story hits my news feed. :(



An off-duty Bexar County Sheriff's Department deputy has been arrested on a felony charge involving sexual assault of a child. Jose Nunez, 47, is a detention deputy who's been with the department ten years.

Sheriff Javier Salazar says the victim's mother is an undocumented immigrant, and the suspect took advantage of the mother's fear of deportation.

Nunez is charged with super aggravated sexual assault -- a charge applied when the victim is less than six years old.

Salazar says the victim, who is 4, cried out to her mother Saturday night.

He said the mother decided to go to a local fire station to report the abuse.

Investigators quickly stepped in and arrested Nunez, around 3 a.m. Sunday.

Salazar said Nunez touched the girl's genitals and hurt her.

Investigators believe the abuse could go back months or possibly years.

Full story: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bexar-count...riff-says/

(06-19-2018, 10:23 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: And.............just after posting the comment above, this story hits my news feed. :(



An off-duty Bexar County Sheriff's Department deputy has been arrested on a felony charge involving sexual assault of a child. Jose Nunez, 47, is a detention deputy who's been with the department ten years.

Sheriff Javier Salazar says the victim's mother is an undocumented immigrant, and the suspect took advantage of the mother's fear of deportation.

Nunez is charged with super aggravated sexual assault -- a charge applied when the victim is less than six years old.

Salazar says the victim, who is 4, cried out to her mother Saturday night.

He said the mother decided to go to a local fire station to report the abuse.

Investigators quickly stepped in and arrested Nunez, around 3 a.m. Sunday.

Salazar said Nunez touched the girl's genitals and hurt her.

Investigators believe the abuse could go back months or possibly years.

Full story: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bexar-count...riff-says/

This guy should be put in a cage and left in the desert. He is twice as bad as any other pervert for using his authority as a weapon.

(06-19-2018, 10:16 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I'd also like to know the plan to reunify children and parents once the parents have been prosecuted, if there even exists a reunification plan under Trump's and Session's new zero-tolerance policy.

I will not comment on all the other talking points you made obviously you believe open borders is whats needed. I will say this though. Immigration reform has been kicked like a can down the road for many years. If the Immigration laws that we have are implemented and adhered to and not ignored as previous administrations have, this would not even be a problem.

As far as "the plan" is for "after" the parents are "prosecuted" (it is ILLEGAL to come into this country without proper papers) as you say even though they will stay if they are not criminals and have a good reason to be here. The children and the parents should be sent back even if it is only to try again.

I would like the Democrats to actually have an immigration policy that addresses the issue of illegal entry. I can only think its for the free votes. And with more states allowing anyone to vote I can see why. But that's another topic.

Maggot, your bullshit is tiring -- both the fiction you post as fact, which I so often have to correct so that topical discussion and debate threads don't become dumbass rhetoric depots, and also your constant lies about how I (and others who don't share your views) think and feel.

I am opposed to open borders, as I've said many times over the years. You saying otherwise just makes you inattentive or a liar. Either way, my position is clear despite your attempt to speak on my behalf.

Nothing I posted was a "talking point" -- every bit of it is an expression of personal knowledge and opinion based on fact.

And, your constant deflection to Democrats, Liberals, Obama, Hillary is pitiful. You sound like a paranoid white nationalist when you claim that Democrat politicians -- who also don't support open borders and have been pushing for more border fencing and for bi-partisan immigration reform for eight years -- are looking for free votes because their idea of immigration policy does not include child separation.

Children don't vote, illegals and undocumented adult immigrants don't vote, and plenty of Republican politicians are right in line with Democrat politicians in wanting smart immigration reform, better processes and enforcement, an end to child separation, increased border patrol which does not include a great big wall across the country...