IRAQ NEEDS HELP (WARNING: GRAPHIC PIX)

[Duchess]

US forces receive orders to head towards Iraq.

U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel ordered an aircraft carrier moved into the Gulf on Saturday, readying it in case Washington decides to pursue a military option after insurgents overwhelmed a string of Iraqi cities this week and threatened Baghdad.

"The order will provide the Commander-in-Chief additional flexibility should military options be required to protect American lives, citizens and interests in Iraq," the Pentagon said in a statement.

The carrier USS George H.W. Bush, moving from the North Arabian Sea, will be accompanied by the guided-missile cruiser USS Philippine Sea and the guided-missile destroyer USS Truxtun, the statement said. It added the ships were expected to complete their transit into the Gulf later on Saturday.

Story

[Maggot]

I must weigh in on these Kurds, and see what's shaking.

[Duchess]

Sonofabitch. He's sending troops in.

The U.S. is urgently deploying several hundred armed troops in and around Iraq and considering sending an additional contingent of special forces soldiers as Baghdad struggles to repel a rampant insurgency, even as the White House insists anew that America will not be dragged into another war.

President Barack Obama notified Congress Monday that up to 275 troops could be sent to Iraq to provide support and security for U.S. personnel and the American Embassy in Baghdad. About 170 of those forces have already arrived and another 100 soldiers be on standby in a nearby country until they are needed, a U.S. official said.

Story

[HairOfTheDog]

I think those reporters who were speculating a couple of days ago that the media was blowing the turmoil in Iraq outta proportion were high or something, Duchess. It was big then and it's bigger now.

I'm sure some of the Iraqis who interviewed gave the Prime Minister glowing reviews; probably all were Shiites and not in the targeted cities or the travel path of ISIS. ISIS is gaining ground very quickly.

Obama sure doesn't want Iran to be the primary force to save the Iraqi government via its military and leadership consultation. I think there's a real and legitimate fear that Iran could virtually envelope Iraq -- huge consequences to the balance of power in the Middle East, and major impacts on the US's foreign relations and pull in the region if that were to happen.

So...now we've put some troops back in Iraq, air strikes are seriously under consideration, 500 marines are on stand-by in the region, five warships are in the Persian Gulf, and this (which I was very glad to see after what happened in Benghazi): Already at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, dozens of Marines and Army troops have moved in to beef up security. Another 100 personnel are in the region to provide support if needed, the Pentagon said.
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/17/world/...?hpt=hp_t1

And, over in England:
On Tuesday, British Prime Minister David Cameron said at a news conference that ISIS's advances in Syria and Iraq constitute the "most serious threat to Britain's security that there is today."

"The number of foreign fighters in that area, the number of foreign fighters including those from the UK who could try to return to the UK, this is a real threat to our country," Cameron said. "And we will do absolutely everything that we can to keep our people safe."

It means, he said, "arresting people who are involved in plots" and "focusing our security, our policing, our intelligence effort" on the area of the world where ISIS operates.
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/17/world/...?hpt=hp_t1

For both the US and England, these days, it's not only a matter of how the movements of Islamic extremists affects our foreign relations, but also how they potentially affect national security on our own soil.

[Duchess]

I would approve of bombing the fuck out of them.

What are they waiting for, an invitation?

ISIS are so bad even Al-Qaeda didn't want them.

[Duchess]

That may have sounded a little too blood thirsty. Ugh. I need to be saving that shit up for that twat Jodi Arias.

[Maggot]

I think we should just stay out of it and let them kill each other.

[Duchess]

I have mixed feelings about it now. On one hand I agree with you and on the other I can't help but feel we played a role in how fucked up their country is. They didn't have these kinds of issues before we invaded them. Saddam had a firm hand.

[crash]

..huge consequences to the balance of power in the Middle East, and major impacts on the US's foreign relations and pull in the region if that were to happen.

And why is that so important to the US?

[HairOfTheDog]

..huge consequences to the balance of power in the Middle East, and major impacts on the US's foreign relations and pull in the region if that were to happen.

And why is that so important to the US?

I didn't say it was so important to the US.

In any case, I can't answer for the whole of the US population because, of course, there are a lot of different opinions and perceptions amongst Americans regarding its level of importance (and regarding most everything else, just like in most developed countries where freedom of thought and expression are encouraged).

If you meant why is important to the US government, my guess would be for the same reasons it's important to the British government and probably the Australian government as well (but you would be more qualified to provide the Australian view point, if you decided to weigh in on that sometime).

Anyway, to answer your question from my perspective only: the US leadership likely considers what's going down in the ME to be highly important for these reasons: 1) money/oil, 2) avoiding the death and destruction of another World War if the Islamic fundamentalists gain a lot of power and continue to drive for more across traditional geographical borders, 3) the spread of extremist and fundamentalist philosophies/tactics being brought home by western citizens engaging in the ME conflicts/wars and being trained in rebel/terrorist tactics, 4) pride / wanting to maintain a perceived degree of control and domination over others, etc...

How about you, crash? What are your thoughts on why what's happening in Iraq is or isn't important? Do you have an opinion on how it should be handled (or not) in the west and the official position that you'd like to see Australia take in the matter?

[crash]

I think your points probably should rank 1 & 4, 3, 2..

The Us has a problem; A great big population with a sense of entitlement and an expected standard of living. To maintain that standard of living, by your own leader's words, you have an addiction to oil. Over 20% of your oil needs, and climbing. are coming out of the middle east. Sure you're not on your own. We need it, Britain needs it and Europe needs it too. We just don't need it at the same level. The US consumption of oil per day is double that of the nearest user, China.

So to keep the people happy, whichever US administration is in power knows they have to ensure long term energy/oil supply or it has to make the people seriously curb their lifestyle. Can you imagine the uproar when the US government says no more cars on the road that can't achieve 40 mpg? No more inefficient oil based heating and cooling, you must pay for more expensive sustainable energy? Anyway, that's probably being a bit too pointy ended..

Iraq and Iran are in some ways victims of the needs of the rest of the world. The western world (well and the Russians too) rolled up on their doorstep and said hey, you have all this oil, we need some, let us make you rich and you can have our lifestyle and our democracy. We fucked them up. We created the angst and the radicals. If they were sealed off on their own and the west had never had access to them, they'd be carrying on fine and have less problems than the rest of the world. Sure, they would have stoned a few women along the way, there would be many injustices in the eyes of the west, but they'd be a lot less fucked up than now.

The west just couldn't walk in and take over the east en-masse. You'd come out looking like Germany in the 40s. So they do it diplomatically and we end up with all the half truths we get fed now. If the world knew the whole truth about what has gone on in the middle east we'd be mind blown.

So how do I think it should be handled? Well it's too late to leave it now. That ship has sailed. We've created a clusterfuck that unfortunately we can't walk away from. But neither will they. And with the same approach, the radical groups of the east have become a presence in the west. They know that to gain any ground, they need to spread their message further, whatever it may be at the time. Somewhere we're heading for a crunch. A catastrophic event. It's been a long time building. How that will play out, I don't know. we, as Australia, are just pawns in the big picture. We have no significant military might or presence. Our strength is our allies and our location.

In a world of rainbows and unicorns, the US/UK keep the big players of the world on side and quell the conflict in the middle east. The kicker is they have to stay there and continually control it. If not, it's just a festering sore.

[HairOfTheDog]

A lot of your points make sense to me, crash.

Greed, fear, power, concern...all powerful motivators for mankind. I wouldn't attempt to rank them, but they're especially powerful when all exist in large parts and are combined. I think that's the case when it comes to the US's and the west's actions and positions in regards to the Middle East. The same motivators exist between the conflicting/warring factions of the Middle East as well.

Sometimes I think the "war on terror" has about as much chance for success as the "war on drugs". Hard to quash a problem by attacking the symptom rather than the cause/root.

Anyway, I don't think there are any easy or clear answers as to what's the right or wrong course of action to take when there are so many cultures, pros/cons, multi-national domino effects, etc...to consider. I believe that many of the jihadist groups sincerely see the west as the "bad guys" who threw the first punches and view themselves as the "good guys" fighting for survival, empowerment, and revenge.

Overall, I don't view them as victims of the west, nor do I view the the governments of countries who've acquired a good deal of their wealth from exporting oil and other natural resources as victims. Overall, I don't consider the US a country of victims either. But,there are certainly victims of specific attacks and corrupt governments against their own people.

IDK. IMO,there's plenty of bullshit, deception and selfishly motivated deals to go around, from all sides, across the globe. Some great stuff, too, but that's another topic.

[crash]

I don't think there are any easy answers at to what's the right or wrong course of action to take when there are some many cultures, pros/cons, domino impacts...to consider. I believe that many of the jihadist groups sincerely see the west as the "bad guys" who threw the first punches and themselves as the "good guys" fighting for survival, empowerment, and revenge. Overall, I don't view them as victims of the west, not do I view the the governments of countries who've acquired a good deal of their wealth from exporting oil and other natural resources as victims. I think there's enough bullshit and selfish motives from all sides to go around. JMO.

Heh. I read that as exploiting, the first time. I wonder if that's a better fit..

I wish I could have gotten those words out of my head so well. 100% agree. Especially that last sentence.

[HairOfTheDog]

Heh. I read that as exploiting, the first time. I wonder if that's a better fit..

I wish I could have gotten those words out if my head so well. 100% agree. Especially that last sentence.

Thanks crash -- I edited that sentence a bit, but it has the same meaning.

I always enjoy the relatively calm global times and hope for at least temporary resolution with the fewest lives lost as possible when things get particularly tumultuous. My hopes get dashed a lot on that front.

It's a wild world, that's for sure.

[Midwest Spy]

Do you realize how much power an aircraft carrier and 2 other warships could collectively unleash?

At times, I wish the US would just show a little of that power to the idiots of the world.

[crash]

At times, I wish the US would just show a little of that power to the idiots of the world.

Why? Everybody knows that power is there. Nobody is denying it. A fair chunk of those 'idiots' don't give a fuck that you have it, if you had ten times more of it; they're still going to go down fighting against it rather than tow the US party line..

By doing that, the US has more to lose than gain, IMO. All the precedents you have set, globally, all the standards you hold the rest of the world to, what the good citizens of the world hold themselves to, would then be lost. By doing that, the US would be opening the door for somewhat of a free-for-all, as well as putting more of a division between your own people.

[Midwest Spy]

Crash, that's exactly why we don't do it, for the reasons you've stated.

It'd be fun to blow some of the worlds 'evil' to smithereens from time to time, though.

[crash]

Yeah, I know, your comment was borne from frustration at the going around in circles that the middle east saga seems to have a patent on. It might relieve a little frustration for a minute or two and give a few 'good ol' boys' a bit of renewed faith that 'murica still has a set, but it'd achieve zilch in the end.

[Maggot]

I picture Mo sitting in a palace tossing morsels off the wall and the ones that don't take the food ..........get shot. Or become really persuasive critics.

[HairOfTheDog]

Crash, that's exactly why we don't do it, for the reasons you've stated.

It'd be fun to blow some of the worlds 'evil' to smithereens from time to time, though.

Jesus, that's not true for everyone.

I would never consider it "fun" to blow people to smithereens, and I'm certainly not an exceptional human being.

It might be a necessary evil sometimes, but never a fun one.

That's why I can't speak for the US population, crash. I like to think that nobody would ever "wanna" slaughter others. But, that's not reality. Clearly, some would.

The extremists in the Middle East sometimes express the joy of killing those whom they consider "evil" too.

Thus, IMO, it's not a western or eastern thang, it's a certain percentage of the global human population.

Probably always has been and always will be...