TOO FAR, OR NOT FAR ENOUGH? RELIGIOUS EXPRESSION IN THE MILITARY

[Duchess]

These people are aware of the rules when they enlist and choose to do so anyway. What about that fact?

[HairOfTheDog]

What is the big fear here?

I don't know if they're big "fears" or not, but two of the concerns expressed by those in and out of the military are:

1. Service is voluntary in the US and soldiers commit themselves to putting that service above all else. Catering to individual preferences or beliefs (religious or otherwise) is not something that is done and could conflict with the mission of being united as one. It may be more divisive than uniting.

2. There are legitimate safety concerns involving long hair and beards when it comes to wearing gas masks and other equipment (in the field, combat and training). I would think the same is true of Wiccans with face and body piercings (though I didn't see that specifically addressed when reading up a little on the issue). This is not subjective and is not argued by most in favor of laxer dress codes as far as I can tell; however they want there to be objective guidelines as to the conditions during which the hair and piercings need to be removed, as opposed to it being at the discretion of the troop leader.

I see both sides on this one and would be interested in hearing from someone here who is actually serving or has served in the military (US or otherwise), particularly in combat or in the field where it seems to me that uniformity is the biggest issue. I don't see any problem with a more relaxed uniform code for people working desk/office jobs.

[Duchess]

What is the big fear here?

I didn't see your edit before now -

Why would you think opposing that equates to fear? I don't feel fearful & I'm pretty sure that those whose opinions really do matter don't feel fearful either. People can oppose something without being afraid of it.

[crash]

These people are aware of the rules when they enlist and choose to do so anyway. What about that fact?

I think you would find the case is a great number of 'those people' don't enlist because of those rules. The challenging of the rules is so they can enlist. Same as when women wanted to take up positions they previously weren't allowed.

[crash]

What is the big fear here?

I didn't see your edit before now -

Why would you think opposing that equates to fear? I don't feel fearful & I'm pretty sure that those whose opinions really do matter don't feel fearful either. People can oppose something without being afraid of it.

It sure sounds like you have an issue (maybe fear was the wrong word, maybe not) about the 'Long and sacred rules of the Marine' being changed. You're certainly vocal about it.

My point was what justifiable reasons were there not to change them, apart from tradition. HotD has given some above, well at least one anyway with the gas mask thing. Not sure how relevant it is today with the most biogasses being used as weapons attacking the bodies nervous system being effective via any skin contact, not just respiratory.

[HairOfTheDog]

Just read a piece in the New York Times.

Some Sikhs, in response to what they deem not loose enough or not objective enough recent agreements to relax US military dress codes, are taking the matter to Congress. They have the support of a couple of high profile Congresspersons, Democrat and Republican.

Part of the Sikh advocacy letter, addressed to Chuck Hagel - US Defense Secretary, contends that they will keep their turbans and facial hair in a neat and conservative manner, which is consistent with operational requirements. As such, the hair and turbans will not pose a safety or readiness issue in regards to all types of gas masks and helmets.

I'm interested in understanding better the dress code history, the objectives of the code relaxation, and arguments from both sides of the debate. So, it's an interesting read, IMO.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/24/us/sik....html?_r=0

[sally]

I see it as a black and white thing, nothing to do with tolerance. The US Military has always required everyone to look a certain way and if you don't like it for whatever reason then don't enlist. They shouldn't be forced to change their uniform code to accommodate anyone imo.

[crash]

And if the world continued to operate that way over the ages, black people would still be slaves, women wouldn't have the right to vote and the church could burn anyone they suspected being a witch at the stake.

Of course changing things to accommodate people is a case of tolerance. What the fuck else can you call it? I'm not saying everything should be changed to suit the wishes of any minority that pops it's head up; it's another of those grey areas, but if the only argument that can be upheld against something is 'That's the way it's always been', then the argument is soft.

[sally]

I bet this guy doesn't give a shit about your bible, turban or Jew curls. Which is the way it should be if you make the decision to join the military.

[sally]

And if the world continued to operate that way over the ages, black people would still be slaves, women wouldn't have the right to vote and the church could burn anyone they suspected being a witch at the stake.

Those are all things that are morally wrong, I don't view military dress codes in the same way.

[Maggot]

They will think so when they are in a firefight and anyone with a turban gets their heads blown off. Shit gets funky during a war.

[crash]

You don't think it's morally wrong to deny somebody the right to fight for their country (Your country), to protect their shores and their family (yours too) on religious grounds?

Next comes the old "I bet if I went to fight in the Muslim army, I'd have to follow their rules" argument. Sure you would. Why? Because they are not tolerant of Western ways...oh, hang on, why are we at war with the Muslims? Because they have no tolerance..

Oh come off it. crash, now you're just exaggerating to make a point... yeah, shit, you're right, I should have just posted a picture of a fictional character..


Like I said, if the only argument against the change is 'That's the way it's always been', then the argument is soft.

[Maggot]

It only opens the door to much more individualism in the service. That is something you do not want in a war machine. They must all be the same. There is no seperate quarters or habits that should be tolerated in battle. That is why soldiers have free time. That is when they can be an individual. The next step might be a teddy bear or something.

[sally]

It only opens the door to much more individualism in the service. That is something you do not want in a war machine. They must all be the same. There is no seperate quarters or habits that should be tolerated in battle. That is why soldiers have free time. That is when they can be an individual. The next step might be a teddy bear or something.

I don't know why that's such a hard concept to grasp. It's the military, it's not pretty. Don't join if you don't like it.

[Duchess]

I probably shouldn't have called them cocksuckers early this morning but I'm viewing this as more of that pc bullshit and it really rubs me the wrong way.

[crash]

I see your point, Mags, I do, but I imagine that the same things were said when the coloured folk wanted to join the military.

[Midwest Spy]

To second what Maggot said and what HotD said in point #1, there is no individualism in the military. That's a very important point to make.

When the time comes that certain groups have special 'arrangements' resentment can fester. That's not going to get the mission accomplished.

It's very important that everyone adhere to the same rules and regulations. If that way of life doesn't suit you then don't join.

[sally]

I see your point, Mags, I do, but I imagine that the same things were said when the coloured folk wanted to join the military.

I could be wrong, but I think black men have a long history of serving and being recruited in the military and not many objected to it. They don't care about your religion or race, their only concern is war.

[crash]

I see your point, Mags, I do, but I imagine that the same things were said when the coloured folk wanted to join the military.

I could be wrong, but I think black men have a long history of serving and being recruited in the military and not many objected to it. They don't care about your religion or race, their only concern is war.

Sure they served for the military for a long time, but they didn't get equality to serve with the military until Truman's time in the 40's when he passed the bill for equal treatment.

My comment above maybe should have said "wanted equal rights in the military"

We can't have a black General, it will divide the military!

[sally]

Everyone has freedom of religion here, but when it comes to the military and you happen to wear your religion through silly hats and facial hair then tough shit. The military should give an impression of being strong and disciplined, not pretty and PC.