MYSTERY IN THE SKY - WTF? - MH370 & MH17 & QZ8501 & More

[HairOfTheDog]

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry addressed the current situation on the Sunday morning news shows




"Drunken -- I mean literally, drunken -- separatist soldiers are piling bodies into trucks unceremoniously and disturbing the evidence," Kerry said on "Fox News Sunday."

"Airplane parts have been removed," Kerry continued. "We need full access and this is a moment of truth for Russia. Some of the leaders of the separatists are Russians. Russia arms these separatists. Russia trains these separatists. Russia supports these separatists. Russia has refused to call on them publicly to do the things that need to be done."

[Duchess]

A few months ago someone in Russia said they could turn the United States into radioactive ash. This is the kind of thing I've been thinking about. Ugh.

[HairOfTheDog]

^ I don't know if Russia could really do that technically speaking, but practically speaking it would be a terribly self-destructive move on their part. It's not something that I worry about.

Just taking back territory that was previously under its umbrella has brought down plenty of condemnation on Russia and some very tragic consequences that have put them in the global hot seat.

Putin's nuts, but he's not stupid, IMO.

[Duchess]

It's not something that I worry about.

I don't think anyone does but me. My overactive imagination is both a blessing & a curse.

[Duchess]

...and Sarah Palin better beware given she can see Russia from her house.

[HairOfTheDog]

...and Sarah Palin better beware given she can see Russia from her house.

She almost always makes me laugh.

She's having a bit of a "la la la -- told ya so!" moment, though.

Back in 2008 when she was VP candidate and following Russia’s invasion of Georgia, she criticized Barack Obama's reaction. Palin said it “was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of indecisiveness that would only encourage Russia’s [Vladimir] Putin to invade Ukraine next.”

I don't know if Obama's personal and leadership styles led Putin to believe that he could act with impunity in the Ukraine, but Palin did foresee the possibility of Putin barging in there. Credit where due.

[crash]

I don't know if Obama's personal and leadership styles led Putin to believe that he could act with impunity in the Ukraine, but Palin did foresee the possibility of Putin barging in there. Credit where due.

Putin is such an unstable nutter that it was more than likely reading Palin's comments that gave him the idea..

[Midwest Spy]

Hmmm... Let's see

1936 Adolph Hitler and Germany host the Olympics. By late 1939 he's embarked on his campaign to take over Europe.

2014 Vlad Putin and Russia host the Olympics. Seems his campaign of forcibly reuniting Soviet satellite countries has already begun.

I happen to think he's very dangerous and he's very well armed.

[ramseycat]

I know someone that is very pro Russia for some reason. He insists that Russia is not responsible for this. Why would they shoot a plane down over their own territory? He also said that Putin'd plane flew that same path about 30 minutes before this plane and that possibly the intent was to shoot down his plane but they got it wrong. IDK if any of this has merit and I haven't seen anything to back it up. Thoughts?

[crash]

Thoughts?

Your friend needs to put the crack pipe down..

[Duchess]

He also said that Putin'd plane flew that same path about 30 minutes before this plane and that possibly the intent was to shoot down his plane but they got it wrong.

I'm not questioning you - I find that ^^^^^ difficult to believe. I don't see Putin putting himself in a position to be shot out of the sky. Other airlines have known about this for quite sometime, it was even reported that a couple of the workers, upon finding out the path they would be taking, choose not to work that flight. While the people who shot that plane down bear the responsibility I also believe that Malaysian airlines does as well.

[Midwest Spy]

I don't buy it.

I feel it's pretty clear that the rebels did this, based on evidence that the BUK's were shipped over the border back to Russia shortly after the incident.

They had downed a Ukranian plane just 2 days prior to this and now they were thinking it was pretty cool, this new 'toy' they'd been given.

I don't think they intended to down a commercial jet at all. I do believe it was a mistake on their part.

But, what happens next? What can really be done?

[ramseycat]

Thoughts?

Your friend needs to put the crack pipe down..

[HairOfTheDog]

I heard your friend's theory floated by separatists a few days ago, rams.

I don't think it's realistic because, despite his weak denials to the contrary, I think Putin knows exactly what is happening at the Eastern Ukraine / Russian border in Donetsk and has known since the get go. His denials to the contrary are falling apart as it become clearer that Russia supplied the missile and based on the content of security recordings of a separatist leader to Russian military after the crash.

And, there's no question whatsoever that Putin was aware of downed Ukraine cargo planes in the area in the days leading up to the downing of MH17. I agree with Duchess that he wouldn't have put himself in a position to be taken down purposely by retaliatory Ukraine military or accidentally by separatists. But, that's not the most far-out conspiracy theory that I've seen featured in the media.



The guy in the picture above, left, is Igor Girkin. He's the Military Chief of the Donetsk People's Republic. The self-proclaimed Prime Minister of that separatist group is on the right, Alexander Boroda.

Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, claimed that he was told by people at the crash site that a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh and that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition. He was floating the story that dead bodies had been put aboard the commercial plane in some plot by the Ukrainian government and then shot down by the Ukrainian military so as to frame the separatists. Nuts.

[HairOfTheDog]

While the people who shot that plane down bear the responsibility I also believe that Malaysian airlines does as well.

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't believe that Malaysia Airlines bears responsibility.

They were flying in internationally-cleared (non-restricted) airspace, above the minimum altitude recommended. Virgin Atlantic and Singapore Air had flown the same path that day and several other airlines still had that path on their flight charters as well.

Of course, it would have been great if all airlines had operated with the abundance of caution taken by some of the major carriers who had changed their routes to avoid Eastern Ukraine altogether.

But, Malaysia Airlines didn't breach any protocols or ignore any industry guidelines -- I don't think any responsibility should be shifted from the party that shot down a huge passenger plane because they were so ill-trained and bloodthirsty that they mistook it for a Ukraine military plane. Every bit of the responsibility for the 298 deaths belongs on the shoulders of the people who launched the missile and the people who armed and supported them, IMO.

[Duchess]

They were flying in internationally-cleared (non-restricted) airspace, above the minimum altitude recommended. Virgin Atlantic and Singapore Air had flown the same path that day and several other airlines still had that path on their flight charters as well.

I have been left with the impression that other airlines had been avoiding that airspace. That's not true?

[HairOfTheDog]

They were flying in internationally-cleared (non-restricted) airspace, above the minimum altitude recommended. Virgin Atlantic and Singapore Air had flown the same path that day and several other airlines still had that path on their flight charters as well.

I have been left with the impression that other airlines had been avoiding that airspace. That's not true?

It true that some some airlines avoided it, and it's true that other airlines didn't.

It's also true that none were flying over the air space that had been restricted by international aviation authorities in the Ukraine and none were flying below the recommended altitude. This could just as easily have been a Virgin, Singapore, Lufthaunsa...flight that was shot down.

I understand why some consider Malaysian Airlines partially responsible because it didn't avoid the area altogether as an extra precaution, like some airlines chose to do. I don't consider that an unreasonable view or anything. I just don't see it that way. Airlines fly over conflict/war zones all the time, following recommended guidelines -- there are so many of them across the globe. To me, if the airline and its pilots are operating according to law and international aviation guidelines and some dipshits shoot 'em down, it's all on those dipshits.

[Duchess]

Airlines fly over conflict/war zones all the time

Yeah, I discovered that when I was reading about this particular case. I was so surprised. I must be somewhat naive in regards to this, I'm thinking if there's danger and even the slightest chance then the area should be avoided altogether and it's just not that way at all.

[HairOfTheDog]

Airlines fly over conflict/war zones all the time

Yeah, I discovered that when I was reading about this particular case. I was so surprised. I must be somewhat naive in regards to this, I'm thinking if there's danger and even the slightest chance then the area should be avoided altogether and it's just not that way at all.

I don't think it's naive. I'd bet most people don't know exactly what's going down on all of the ground beneath the airspace that they're traveling through on international flights.

Passengers rely on the airlines for safety. The airlines rely on the aviation and regulatory authorities. It works, with very very very few exceptions.

Here's a chart of all of the airlines that were still flying the same route as MH17, along with the number of flights that each had sent on that route in the week preceding the attack.



It was published in German Spiegel and republished with commentary in The Atlantic.

[HairOfTheDog]

But, what happens next? What can really be done?

There's a lot of circumstantial evidence piling up against Ukrainian separatists, who could not have had the training to launch the missile without Russia, by all accounts.

Putin's floating a story that there was a Ukrainian jet in that airspace and it could have shot down MH17. Ukrainian officials deny that there were any planes in the area at the time. And, Putin's story doesn't explain the social media claims by the separatists that they had obtained a missile launcher (they said from raiding an old Ukrainian military site; US intelligence says from Russia smuggling in equipment), nor does it explain separatist leaders taking credit for downing a plane right after MH17 was hit (all of which was deleted as soon as it became known that the plane was a passenger jet).

The black boxes were handed over to Malaysian officials yesterday by Donetsk separatists who again claimed not to have the equipment to shoot down a plane at that altitude. I don't think the flight recordings are gonna be much use here anyway. The plane went down too quickly. The Ukrainian govt claimed yesterday that they had received information indicating that the boxes had been tampered with while in separatist possession. I don't know about that. But, even if separatists or Russia did attempt to tamper with them, the pilots' communications with air traffic control and such were recorded on the other end too, so it would be easy to detect tampering and would cement their guilt more quickly.

Anyway, what can really be done? More financial sanctions against Russia unless they abandon the separatists altogether and work to resume peace along the Ukraine / Russia border. This means that Germany and France need to climb aboard the sanction train, despite their commerce with Russia and some financial losses to themselves. That would greatly hurt Russia and Putin. Is the loss of so many innocent lives worth it to them? We'll find out when the evidence is compiled and it goes to vote.