The Crying Game / TRANSGENDER DISCUSSION

[HairOfTheDog]

It's definitely a choice to have gender-reassignment surgery, blueberry. And, it's definitely a choice whether to lie to someone about whether you're physically a male or female when you pursue a romantic relationship with them.

But, personally, I don't think that all transgender individuals are transgender for the same reasons. Some transgender individuals were likely born as identifying with a gender but have the opposite gender's genitalia, as you noted. Others possibly identify themselves as the opposite biological gender primarily due to environmental and psychological influences/factors. There's a lot of research being done in regards to gender identification and there isn't a sole definitive cause that's been identified as being applicable to all transgender individuals.

Anyway, whatever the underlying factors for each individual, it's a personal choice to have any elective surgery and I don't think sound adults should be denied that choice.

[blueberryhill]

It sounds as though you are thinking of transsexual or cross dressers which usually do involve choices. I am talking about the people whose brains do not match their genitalia. This is not choice, however, before they can have the surgery to change their genitalia, they must go through several months of counseling, testing, etc. to determine it is the real deal. I would imagine that this is the way to weed out the "phonies."

[HairOfTheDog]

It sounds as though you are thinking of transsexual or cross dressers which usually do involve choices. I am talking about the people whose brains do not match their genitalia. This is not choice, however, before they can have the surgery to change their genitalia, they must go through several months of counseling, testing, etc. to determine it is the real deal. I would imagine that this is the way to weed out the "phonies."

You have more knowledge than I on the biological and genetic front, blueberry.

I absolutely agree that not all transgender individuals want to have gender reassignment surgery, many don't. And, I don't think that any person should be able get the surgery without the medical and psychological screening and counseling. I know it's not a minor procedure. But, I think any transgender individual should have the choice to have the surgery if they're approved through the pre-op screening process.

Anyway, I was speaking more about the transgender population in general. Its a broad group/classification.

Transgender
: A term for people whose gender identity, expression or behavior is different from those typically associated with their assigned sex at birth.

I wouldn't call any transgender individual a phony myself. We have a huge transgender population in San Fransisco. It doesn't make any difference to me whether or why someone is transgender when I'm interacting with individuals. They have a right to express themselves and behave as they see fit, just like I do. IMO.

But, the research and science is very interesting. Thanks.

[blueberryhill]

I feel the need to apologize to all the transgendered people in the world for using term "phony." You are correct, Hair, it was poor choice of words.
I watched these surgeries on Discovery Health years ago when Dr. Marci Bowers was doing these surgeries in Trinidad, CO. She also has office in San Mateo, CA.
Guess what I meant was to weed out those individuals who were not committed to the sexual reassignment surgery. Dr. Bowers, for example, requires that you live for a minimum of a year as the sex you want to transition to and take hormones for a certain amount of time, have letters from Psychiatrists, etc. One patient had to spend 5 years in a period of living as the opposite sex before making a commitment. She rejects anyone who refuses to abide by her rules...which is a good thing...Back in the 70's I counseled with two students who, at the time, I thought were boys who just wanted to dress like women. They were always excited to show me their clothes from a local clothing store. I just didn't understand the concept of being born in the wrong body. I would like to think that today I do understand and fully support anyone who wants to have sexual reassignment surgery. By the way did you happen to watch the story last week on CNN (I think) of the Navy Seal who transitioned to a woman. It was a 2 hour show and very informative and interesting and there was no mention of his having surgery. I know that a majority of the population would not understand how he could do this, but he explains he always felt like he should have been born a female from an early age. O.K. I will shut up about this now, just wanted to clarify that I wasn't judging anyone. I try not to do that until I have walked in their shoes....

[HairOfTheDog]

^ I know what you mean, blueberry -- no worries. I agree that the pre-screening process is critical for anyone who is exploring gender reassignment surgery. Some people may think they want to undergo the transformation until they realize what a huge commitment and what a long process it entails.

I didn't see that CNN program you mentioned. But, I did see a TLC documentary years ago that always stuck with me about the twin Reimer brothers. One of them, David, had gender reassignment following a terribly botched circumcision as a baby in Canada back in 1965. He was raised as a girl (without being told he'd been born male). Tragic story and very interesting case of nature vs. nurture.

Dr. Money was the sexual reassignment guru who convinced the family that gender identity is determined by nurture. Didn't turn out that way. If you haven't seen it and you're interested, it's a good informative piece if you have time to watch it. I found the videos; they're embedded below this post.

One thing that concerns me are the cases of parents who want to have their toddlers or young children's biological sexes changed because they say the child identifies as the opposite sex. Lotta debate surrounding the issue. Advocates for it say that it's better to start the process as early as possible for social integration (I understand that point, but think it's too uncertain and risky). Those against child gender reassignment, like me, think that children are too young to know what they really want and the parents shouldn't get to make that call. Even if the parent truly believes the child was born identifying as the opposite gender, the child is not able to process and communicate all of the implications clearly enough to confirm the parents' beliefs. Plus, kids' perceptions of themselves change as their brains develop and the child may not have been born in the wrong body after all. I don't think gender reassignment surgery should be an option for anyone but adults who've gone through the full screening and counseling process.

Anyway, Interesting topic. I'll try to find that CNN piece you referenced on line this weekend and give it watch.

NATURE VS. NURTURE: DAVID REIMER SEX REASSIGNMENT CASE

[blueberryhill]

Thanks Hair, this case rings a bell, but will check it out. I am somewhat stubborn on my views~~guess u call that being opinionated, but I have always believed (well for a long time anyway) that we are born with many propensities that define us or don't make much of a difference either way. So goes the theory of nature versus nurture. Of course, your environment is going to affect who you become as an adult and yet we know that for example serial killers have siblings that don't become murderers, etc....and so it goes.....If you have ever observed a newborn nursery, you will see and hear fussy, crying babies, while some just sleep peacefully.....some rare studies followed these babies throughout (study when I was in school in 1970's) so I can't vouch for veracity,
but end result showed happy babies at birth were happy adults and fussy babies were more unsettled as adults. This is in spite of different environments....
I 100% believe that some personality traits we inherit regardless of nurture; the "happier" child will thrive more in a negative environment, while the anxious, fussy child will continue to be so with adjustments made for environment. I don't know how we got to this point, but I love talking about this subject. I have always been fascinated by human behavior and trying to figure out and explain behaviors. I do think we agree more than we disagree, but appreciate your knowledge and input. Some (a lot) believe being gay is a choice and that really rattles my chains.... Cheers!

[username]

At home I keep crossing paths with a guy who dresses female. Sorry Clang but he doesn't look attractive. He looks stuck in some androgynous state. Clearly male...prefers (I guess) women 's clothing. None of my business but that guy's not fooling anyone.

[Clang McFly]

At home I keep crossing paths with a guy who dresses female. Sorry Clang but he doesn't look attractive. He looks stuck in some androgynous state. Clearly male...prefers (I guess) women 's clothing. None of my business but that guy's not fooling anyone.

I don't think I'm fooling anyone when I'm dressed in drag, but I do think I'm not as unattractive as other men I've seen dressed in drag.

[Duchess]

I do think I'm not as unattractive as other men I've seen dressed in drag.

That could be an easy fix. Maybe you're not applying makeup correctly or dressing for your body type. Also, keep in mind that 80% of those who wear a bra are wearing the wrong size.

[Midwest Spy]

I do think I'm not as unattractive as other men I've seen dressed in drag.

Also, keep in mind that 80% of those who wear a bra are wearing the wrong size.

LOL.

Clang, this one minor point could mean the difference between you looking like Ru Paul or Tammi Faye Baker.

[Clang McFly]

I do think I'm not as unattractive as other men I've seen dressed in drag.

That could be an easy fix. Maybe you're not applying makeup correctly or dressing for your body type. Also, keep in mind that 80% of those who wear a bra are wearing the wrong size.

I think I have just about the right bra size(48B) but I need breastforms( which I can't afford at the moment) to fill out the cups better. I've never experimented with makeup except for lipstick. I wouldn't know where to begin or how to apply the other stuff.

[sally]

but I do think I'm not as unattractive as other men I've seen dressed in drag.

Trust me, you are.

[Clang McFly]

but I do think I'm not as unattractive as other men I've seen dressed in drag.

Trust me, you are.

You've never seen me in drag.how the fuck would you know, bitchcakes?

[sally]

I don't need to see you in drag, I've seen you as a man. There is no make up or clothing in the world that is going to make you look anything other than a fat guy in drag. It would be like putting a dress and lip stick on John Goodman. You're not some skinny Filipino guy that can pull it off.

[Duchess]

I've never experimented with makeup except for lipstick. I wouldn't know where to begin or how to apply the other stuff.

If this is something you are truly interested in, youtube has a shit ton of tutorials that will guide you. I watched bits & pieces of a couple of them. The transformations are incredible. Do you have a wig?

[IroningBroad]

Yeah what Duchess said.Youtube makeup tutorials.They have drag makeup tutorials as well.

Clang I don't know what you look like, but as long as you feel happy while you're dressed and made up as a woman, than that's all that matters. Whether you look attractive or not to others is strictly their problem, not yours.

[Duchess]

Yeah what Duchess said.Youtube makeup tutorials.They have drag makeup tutorials as well.

I took it for granted that Clang would know I was referring to drag makeup tutorials. It wouldn't do any good to give him tips on how females do it. It's quite different.

[FAHQTOO]

Yeah what Duchess said.Youtube makeup tutorials.They have drag makeup tutorials as well.

Clang I don't know what you look like, but as long as you feel happy while you're dressed and made up as a woman, than that's all that matters. Whether you look attractive or not to others is strictly their problem, not yours.

We have a members photo gallery...which reminds me...post a pic of yourself.

[IroningBroad]

Yeah what Duchess said.Youtube makeup tutorials.They have drag makeup tutorials as well.

Clang I don't know what you look like, but as long as you feel happy while you're dressed and made up as a woman, than that's all that matters. Whether you look attractive or not to others is strictly their problem, not yours.

We have a members photo gallery...which reminds me...post a pic of yourself.

I'm still a newb.Not a member yet..

[Clang McFly]

I've never experimented with makeup except for lipstick. I wouldn't know where to begin or how to apply the other stuff.

If this is something you are truly interested in, youtube has a shit ton of tutorials that will guide you. I watched bits & pieces of a couple of them. The transformations are incredible. Do you have a wig?

I'm somewhat interested in it, but I have trouble tying my tie and makeup seems even more complicated. Yeah I have a wig but I need a new one. The current wig is like 7 years old and I never bothered with proper wig care.