The Crying Game / TRANSGENDER DISCUSSION

[HairOfTheDog]

I see, Donovan.

Intolerance exists here at Mock, for sure. It exists everywhere. But I don't see the responses in this thread as indicative of intolerance. Different perspectives, I guess.

There are differences of opinion about transgenders and gender dysphoria, even amongst the medical professionals. So, it's not surprising to me that there would be differences of opinion amongst Mock members too.

And, I don't think referring to someone who has a penis as "he", even though the person identifies more as a female, is a sure sign of "intolerance". It's confusing and the topic is rather new ground for the general public. What's considered "appropriate" terminology is in flux. Ignorance and intolerance are not the same. Maybe somebody who referred, for example, to Chelsea Manning as a "he" did so for no other reason than Chelsea Manning is still biologically male; and the "he" reference was made with no intent to deny or admonish her right to identify as female.

IIRC, there were no posts suggesting that people who identify as the opposite gender should be outcast, or jailed, or prevented from expressing themselves, or prevented from physically altering their genitals to match their gender identity, etc... THAT would equate to intolerance (which is okay to express here too; I just haven't seen it in this thread).

As for Norsworthy, I think "adequate medical care" is debatable. She has been given hormone therapy, anti-depressants, counseling, and such. And, Norsworthy won't die without the surgery. In that regard, it is an elective procedure, though some doctors and transgender activists would argue that anything less than the surgery is not the "highest standard of treatment available" and is therefore not adequate.

Norsworthy was convicted of murder, so she is legally guilty of taking another person's life. Regardless of the debate over what the mission of the US prison system should be, I think it's going too far to demand she be given the surgery by the Corrections Department. I do understand why you might feel differently.

The way the Justice Department statement is worded, a confessed convicted murderer on death row could claim to have always identified as a woman years into his (or her, whichever suits your sensitivities) sentence, claim that he (or she) is experiencing internal pain and conflict about it, and very possibly be deemed entitled to gender reassignment treatment and surgery. That too is imprudent, in many ways, in my opinion.

[Duchess]

I'm intolerant of taxpayers footing the bill for this.

[aussiefriend]

Do you know what it looks like to me? Lose my penis, gain my freedom.

[HairOfTheDog]

Do you know what it looks like to me? Lose my penis, gain my freedom.

A lot of divorced women would probably share your view, aussie.

[aussiefriend]

boom boom

[Clang McFly]

I'm intolerant of taxpayers footing the bill for this.

I'm intolerant of them allowing him/her to have the SRS. Prison is a punishment. You shouldn't be allowed something that seems like a reward.

[sally]

Methadone is a medication Sal. It would be under supervision, and it is a human right to be given access to basic medical care.

I know what methadone is Aussie, thanks. My sister had a prescription for Suboxone (which is similar) at the time of her arrest and they denied it to her in jail.

[aussiefriend]

If she has a valid prescription at the time, she has grounds for a complaint, they still have a duty of care. I know that many human rights are eroded when institutionalized but that is valid proof. She could have gone into a seizure. However, if she was found to be in possession and tested positive for illegal substances this could have jeopardized her prescription and therefore her access to that medication. If we dispense that here, it has to be 2 registered nurses sign out and double check and do a drug count. Double check the person's identity each time and date of birth ect. To cease it abruptly could induce a seizure, but if the person is a polysubstance abuser little chance they will get access to that medication, no matter what kind of pain they are in.

[Donovan]

I think if a person identifies as female, as this woman clearly has for twenty-five years per your OP, then insisting on calling her "HIM" is a passive-aggressive form of prejudice. So is incarcerating her in a men's prison. There are men and women here on this message board who have self-identified by gender. We accept those definitions even though, with one or two notable exceptions, nobody has seen anyone's genitalia on this board.

Put it away, Clang, that was NOT an invitation.

Once in my early days here I argued with HotD under the premise she was a man posting as a woman. Although that was mostly trolling and tongue-in-cheek, it suits this debate as follows: during the course of the argument HotD sent me an actual picture purporting to be her, fully clothed and clearly gender-female.

However, using the criteria evidenced above against the prisoner in question, I by rights should have demanded to see her vagina as the only acceptable proof of gender identity.

Are you prepared to show us your goods, HotD? You can PM me and I will verify you are, once and for all, a woman since that seems to be the accepted form of proof we're all talking about. I will make that sacrifice for the common good. I'm selfless like that.

As for the prisoner in question: if the blurb you found is accurate, she definitely sounds like what I described before, a person who made a horrifically bad drunken decision that killed somebody and fucked her whole life over. Some people believe that's enough reason to throw her away and lose the key. I say again, if that is our intent why not just kill everyone we convict and stop pretending we are a civilized people?

[HairOfTheDog]

You can gender troll me all you like, Donovan -- you're not getting any nude photos of me.

And, I don't think your arguments that this thread reflects "surprising intolerance" towards transgenders by Mock members are convincing. Instead, your arguments lead me to believe that you don't understand what "intolerance" means.

I don't see the intolerance you claim to see at all (except in Jimbone's posts) -- I see people expressing different opinions, none of them suggesting that transgenders should not be tolerated.

You seem to find people who aren't willing to disingenuously agree with what you insist is true to be harder to tolerate than others. That's fine too.

[Clang McFly]

Put it away, Clang, that was NOT an invitation.

As if.

I only whip out my genitals for the ladies' viewing pleasure/displeasure.

(I swear I'm NOT a creep or serial killer...really.)

[sally]

Put it away, Clang, that was NOT an invitation.

As if.

I only whip out my genitals for the ladies' viewing pleasure/displeasure.

(I swear I'm NOT a creep or serial killer...really.)

You are a strange man. I take it that you're attracted to women and not men, right? I understand why you like to cross dress, but why would you want to go all out and have a sex change? You realize if you become a woman you're going to have to fuck men right? Unless by some slim chance there is lesbian out there that wants a woman who used to be a man.

[sally]

I'm not intolerant to anyone. Unless you're in prison. Then I don't give a shit about your gender identity issues and neither should anyone else.

You put yourself in there, toots. And when they stripped searched you, you had a penis and that's the way it should remain until you're released.

[Jimbone]

Intolerance exists here at Mock, for sure. It exists everywhere. But I don't see the responses in this thread as indicative of intolerance. Different perspectives, I guess.

There are differences of opinion about transgenders and gender dysphoria, even amongst the medical professionals. So, it's not surprising to me that there would be differences of opinion amongst Mock members too.

IIRC, there were no posts suggesting that people who identify as the opposite gender should be outcast, or jailed, or prevented from expressing themselves, or prevented from physically altering their genitals to match their gender identity, etc... THAT would equate to intolerance (which is okay to express here too; I just haven't seen it in this thread).

I don't see the intolerance you claim to see at all (except in Jimbone's posts) -- I see people expressing different opinions, none of them suggesting that transgenders should not be tolerated.

Really? Can you point out my intolerance for transgenders? Because at 9:38AM everyone was playing well in the sandbox, and three hours later I've somehow made intolerant comments about transgenders.

Just because I may hold a contrary opinion of the validity of gender dysphoria - just like the medical experts you mentioned - doesn't make me intolerant. Nowhere have I said they should be outcast, jailed, or prevented from being whoever they want to be.

But this conversation started with a discussion of taxpayers paying for it, which I am absolutely opposed to. Everyone who wants to do it on their own dime or insane insurers dime, have at it.

If I have said otherwise in my posts, I'll happily apologize.

[HairOfTheDog]

There's no rule or law that says everybody here has to be tolerant of everyone in the world, Jimbone. I sure as hell am not.

Personally, I'd rather you call it like you see it than post bullshit in order to appear "tolerant" or "PC".

I wasn't suggesting that there was anything wrong with your posts, just being accurate in acknowledging that though it's not reflective of this thread in general, one poster thus far (you) shared an opinion that is by definition an "intolerant" view of transgenders.

For real, how can this even happen? There is never a 'medical need' for gender reassignment. It's gotta always be considered elective surgery, RIGHT? It's all bullshit that someone claims they are born 'emotionally' the opposite sex. All it means in that your gay or a lesbian, and you're not comfortable with it. Come to think of it, the LGBT movement should only be LGB. The transexuals are bullshitters that have glommed onto the movement.

^ That classifies as intolerant, "not willing to allow or accept something". You don't accept that transgenderism exists and suggest that those who identify as transgenders should not be acknowledged as such.

I don't think the sandbox has been tainted or anything, and you certainly don't have any reason to apologize.

[sally]

I would consider that intolerant JB. You might not spit in a transgenders face or anything, but calling them bull shitters would be classified as intolerant.

When someone feels that they are a female trapped in a male's body or vice versa that doesn't just simply mean they are gay. My sister is gay and she doesn't want to be a man, she's perfectly happy with her vagina and breasts, she just happens to be physically and mentally attracted to women. It's not the same thing.

[HairOfTheDog]

When someone feels that they are a female trapped in a male's body or vice versa that doesn't just simply mean they are gay. My sister is gay and she doesn't want to be a man, she's perfectly happy with her vagina and breasts, she just happens to be physically and mentally attracted to women. It's not the same thing.

Yeah, I don't think all people who claim to be transgender or have been diagnosed as such are gays who are uncomfortable with their homosexuality either (maybe some of them are -- I have no way of knowing).

Look at Chaz Bono. For years, he was a lesbian woman with girlfriends and he coached others on how to come out. Now, he's a transgendered man with a fiancee.



He wasn't an in-denial lesbian when he transgendered. He transgendered because he always felt like he was male even though his body was female. He appears to be happy since the transition.

I don't know if Bruce Jenner is gay. He seems to have had genuine heterosexual love for his wives. Maybe he's gay though and was just ashamed to come out. Or, maybe he's bi-sexual. Or, maybe he's just a straight guy who always wanted to be a woman and so now he's gonna become a lesbian. He hasn't disclosed his reasons publicly and it's none of my business anyhow.

P.s. Don't get all hot under the collar Donovan. I'm calling Bruce a "he" because Bruce hasn't changed his name or disclosed that he has gender dysphoria or asked to be called a "she" or anything. It would be presumptuous of me to pretend that I know his preferences or that he'd be offended by a two-letter pronoun during his time of transition.

[sally]

I don't think Chaz was bullshitting when she had her breasts cut off and became a man. She always looked to have male characteristics to me. And I know some men and women are born with more female or male hormones.

What makes me scratch my head is when you see a 6'5 300 lb. man who doesn't have a womanly bone in his body and says he's a woman. I once laughed at a black guy like that who was prostituting on the side of the street. I was walking with my friend and we giggled as we walked by and he took his heels off and started chasing us. At first he was talking like a woman and then he said "you done made the man come out of me now bitches". I was scared shitless.

[Duchess]

I'm so glad I'm not inclined to be a man. I'm a girly girl tomboy and it suits me perfectly.

[aussiefriend]

Yes but what I read with that murderer is that they want out of prison. The thing is, if you are a murderer, I don't gender reassignment as a life threatening illness. I think put a bra and panties on and that's all you get. Some people can't afford that surgery and have to do that.