PROBABLE CAUSE

[Duchess]

Should the police have probable cause before they ask anything of you? Should LE be allowed to make random stops and ask you for ID or to exit your vehicle without probable cause?

One cannot be forced to talk to any law enforcement officer. That's a fact.

[QueenBee]

If it for a traffic stop, then yes, give them your damn ID already. I do not know if passengers should be asked for ID without cause. But that being said, IF you are a passenger, and the LE asks, then give them your damn ID already. If you fight them, or argue with them, then don't get pissed of they act accordingly.
That being said, stop using the color of your skin as an excuse to fight back.

[Maggot]

No, a traffic stop sure but they need to have a reason for asking and they need to write why in any report.

[sally]

They don't have to tell you the reason though. I looked it up once and they have the right to tell you to step out of the vehicle even if the reason isn't clear, if you don't comply they have the right to arrest you.

[username]

Are we talking about this?





I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I don't see why (except he's big and black), the officers asked the passenger to get out of the car. If it had been a little, old white woman rummaging around in her purse, you know that wouldn't have happened. On the other hand, the guy could have just gotten the hell out of the car and apparently, he's legally required to do so when asked (according to what I've heard so far).

The defense from cops these days is always the same "we felt threatened". I don't know if they're teaching Pussy101 in the police academy these days but there are seemingly a lot of cops feeling "threatened" these days. I Googled "police officer deaths in the United States" just to see if there was a reason they were seemingly getting more paranoid year after year. This table at least doesn't seem to support it:

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fata.../year.html



They're freaking da' fuck out!!

[Duchess]

They need a new way to make a living rather than policing people if they are so fearful. I don't want anyone on the force whose first response is always to draw their weapon. That's bullshit. More & more lately my only thought is that they have a license to kill. The poor guy at the gas station was shot when he reached for his license after being requested to do so for fuckssake.

[Carsman]

My first reaction to seeing that video was, damn those cops are totally out of control!

But then reconsidering, the guy did act suspicious when the cop questioned him, and then the guy refused to cooperate and get out of the car per cops direction.

Not long ago, I remember seeing a similar situation on a cop's dash cam video. Where the cop was questioning the driver, and eventually he found a joint, and all of a sudden the passenger in the front seat jumped out shooting at and hitting the cop, and the cop fell down, and the two guys sped off! So cops, do have reason to be weary! It's not an easy job in any sense!

[Duchess]

It's not an easy job in any sense!

No, it isn't and that's why I'd like to see them properly trained. I don't think many of them are when their first reaction is to pull their weapon out.

[Carsman]

It's not an easy job in any sense!

No, it isn't and that's why I'd like to see them properly trained. I don't think many of them are when their first reaction is to pull their weapon out.

Try to put yourself in their shoes. (I try to) The cop only has a split second to respond if the thug has a gun and aims it to shoot at the cop. If the cop is not greased lighting on the draw, and he can't get his gun out fast enough, and he's a dead man. He wants to go home at night.
Again, it's not an easy job, training is good, but sometimes training tells the cop to go with his gut.

[Duchess]

I no longer trust the police even enough to give them the benefit of doubt, Cars. Unfortunately, a few bad apples have given me a very poor opinion of them. I don't think all cops are bad cops but I do think there are probably more bad cops than good cops.

[username]

It's not an easy job in any sense!

No, it isn't and that's why I'd like to see them properly trained. I don't think many of them are when their first reaction is to pull their weapon out.

Try to put yourself in their shoes. (I try to) The cop only has a split second to respond if the thug has a gun and aims it to shoot at the cop. If the cop is not greased lighting on the draw, and he can't get his gun out fast enough, and he's a dead man. He wants to go home at night.
Again, it's not an easy job, training is good, but sometimes training tells the cop to go with his gut.

You have to admit that you're profiling though. I generally don't have a problem with that but their reaction to him was significantly different than it would have been if a white or Asian female had been in that passenger's seat. They wanted him out solely because he appeared threatening to them (based on his size, age and yes, color). My opinion.

[Cutz]

I'm sure cops are like any other job. The shittier area you work, the more questionable and reprehensible the actions. Thankfully I've lived in pretty nice areas, so I never grew up with an innate distrust of authorities. It's a double edged sword I'm sure. Individuals don't trust cops, cops don't trust people, everyone's looking to keep the other from getting the jump on them.

[Duchess]

The shittier area you work, the more questionable and reprehensible the actions. Thankfully I've lived in pretty nice areas, so I never grew up with an innate distrust of authorities.

My opinion of them has nothing to do with where I grew up or live now, it has everything to do with what I've seen reported on the news and read in a variety of publications. Many of them DO abuse their authority, many of them DO lie, cheat & steal. I didn't just pull this opinion out of my ass, they made me feel this way. They are like everyone else, there are good and bad. I don't have to show respect for people simply because they are in a position of authority. I feel the same way about priests and everyone else on earth.

[thekid65]

Got some shit to say on this one...probably wont be until Sat though.

[Carsman]

It's not an easy job in any sense!

No, it isn't and that's why I'd like to see them properly trained. I don't think many of them are when their first reaction is to pull their weapon out.

Try to put yourself in their shoes. (I try to) The cop only has a split second to respond if the thug has a gun and aims it to shoot at the cop. If the cop is not greased lighting on the draw, and he can't get his gun out fast enough, and he's a dead man. He wants to go home at night.
Again, it's not an easy job, training is good, but sometimes training tells the cop to go with his gut.

You have to admit that you're profiling though. I generally don't have a problem with that but their reaction to him was significantly different than it would have been if a white or Asian female had been in that passenger's seat. They wanted him out solely because he appeared threatening to them (based on his size, age and yes, color). My opinion.

Actually the cop's cam video I mentioned involved two white guys, so they never know. Again, it's not an easy job, nor safe job by any stretch of the imagination. Don't know why cops do it, they don't get paid a fortune to put their lives on the line every day.
(Some say, it's a personality thing, being a cop gives them "power", and they're in charge, and they love that)

[cannongal]

Should the police have probable cause before they ask anything of you? Should LE be allowed to make random stops and ask you for ID or to exit your vehicle without probable cause?

One cannot be forced to talk to any law enforcement officer. That's a fact.

It depends on your definition of probably cause.

Take the Boston Marathon for example-do you think the cops should have the ability to stop anyone with tannish skin and a Backpack? I bet peeps in Boston do.

During hunting season up here, it's common to see men walking down the street holding a rifle (we have open carry) even near schools-cops generally drive right on by-yet in another state, would that be considered probable cause?

I think cops walk a fine line these days. America has become dangerous and too politically correct at the same time.

[Cutz]

The shittier area you work, the more questionable and reprehensible the actions. Thankfully I've lived in pretty nice areas, so I never grew up with an innate distrust of authorities.

They are like everyone else, there are good and bad. I don't have to show respect for people simply because they are in a position of authority.

Yeah, there are good and bad. I never said I respect them for being in a position of authority. I respect them because they have a job where people will kill them just for putting on their uniform, whether they're good or bad at their job. I never worried about getting shot for putting on my Jimmy John's hat.

[username]

The defense from cops these days is always the same "we felt threatened". I don't know if they're teaching Pussy101 in the police academy these days but there are seemingly a lot of cops feeling "threatened" these days.

I think cops walk a fine line these days.

I can only hope I've passed the virus on to someone else.

[thekid65]

Should the police have probable cause before they ask anything of you? Should LE be allowed to make random stops and ask you for ID or to exit your vehicle without probable cause?

One cannot be forced to talk to any law enforcement officer. That's a fact.

True, you dont have to say a damned thing. And believe me, I'm far from a lover of the police. But these guys/gals have a tough motherfucking job, and really don't get paid shit, for the crap they have to deal with. They have to make split second decisions, sometimes involving life and death. They're just doing their job, in most cases. And like any other job..you have some that do it well, and some that just suck. If ya got nothing to hide, answer a couple of questions, and be on your way...what's the big fucking deal? Don't give me "THIS IS AMERICA, DAMMIT, I GOT MY RIGHTS!" bullshit...it's a different world we're living in nowadays.

And then you have asshats like this guy below. Just itching to pick a fight while trying to make a statement. Whether you agree or not with checkpoints, they're legal in most states. This is the guy that needs his window broken....come'on man...roll your fucking window down, answer 2-3 questions, and be on your way. Why be an asshole? Honestly wouldn't break my heart for that dude to get wiped out by a drunk driver at some point later in his life...karma, it's a bitch. Cops were 100% polite, and cordial.



Now, the video below is a bit different...drivers license checkpoint? WTF....not sure that is right. Taking shit a bit too far..more of a "show me your papers" thing..and that's not cool. Tennessee is a bit whacked with that shit.

[Cutz]

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous that randomly stopping vehicles to check license/registration is illegal, but if you just stop every car and post signs then it's legal. It's not the frequency of the action, it's the cause. They're just randomly stopping every vehicle...

However, at some point legal realism/positivism trump arguments for natural law. Is it immoral to check that drivers on a road are licensed to drive? Not really. Are they checking citizenship looking for Jews similar to Nazi Germany? No. If you don't like a law and you really feel so strongly about it... start a blog, write your representatives, or run for office. The rest of the working smucks in the world have to deal with the laws as they're written and move on with our lives.