The Jew made sense.

[Maggot]

I read the transcript of his speech to Congress, it really wasn't as bad as all the assholes made it out to be. Iran is lying to get a deal to kick the can down the road on their nuclear ambitions and Netenyahu just told the truth about it. Week kneed diplomats hate the truth.

[Duchess]

I don't think there's any shot in hell of any country helping Iran realize their nuclear ambitions. Zero chance.

[HairOfTheDog]

I feel the opposite about Netanyahu and his rationale.

That Jew did not make sense if the goal is reducing Iran's nuclear WMD-producing potential and increasing international visibility of Iran's enrichment program.

If the goal is to ensure that the US is poised to go to war with Iran in defense of what Israel fears is likely to happen (which should always be the worst, even though Netanyahu's own security agency's findings contradict his claims), that Jew makes sense.

[Maggot]

Obama put out a statement that there would be no deal with Iran after Netenyahu made his speech. There was a lot of huffing and puffing from Iran about it but I believe it was a dog and pony show for the public.
We will see when the deal is brokered if the Jew was right and the can is getting kicked for political reasons. Iran cannot on one hand say "Death to America" and " Death to Israel" and then on the other hand say that nuclear enrichment is for peaceful purposes. Sanctions work otherwise Iran would not be trying to end them without giving anything back.

[HairOfTheDog]

Obama put out a statement that there would be no deal with Iran after Netenyahu made his speech.

What?

Where did you see that, Maggot? That's a very misleading characterization.

Obama has always said that a deal with Iran to lift sanctions is dependent upon Iran's agreement to very specific conditions. The projection from the administration has long been that the likelihood of getting those agreements by the June 30^th deadline is about ⁵⁰⁄₅₀ or less -- it has nothing to do with Netanyahu's speech to Congress nor the content of that speech.

Obama opposes what Netanyahu and some conservative congresspersons propose: if agreement isn't reached by June 30^th, then more sanctions should be placed on Iran. I don't think that makes good sense either. Yeah, let's penalize Iran (which is helping to fight IS) for attempting to negotiate a deal, thereby undermining the existing Iranian government and potentially further destabilizing the region.

I don't have love for Iran. But, good foreign policy includes being open, savvy and forward-thinking in terms of improving relations with other countries when there is an opportunity to do so. IMO.

[Maggot]

Obama said the comment about the 10 year plan with Iran march 2^nd. Which was a day before the Netenyahu speech you are correct in that aspect.

[Donovan]

The methodology of Congress inviting a foreign head of state without consulting our own president is a stupid idea that is likely to backfire on them. Not only does it strain the relationship with Israel, practically forcing Obama to answer in some fashion, but it also makes our own leaders look weak and petty to the rest of the world. Boehner did the equivalent of showing the rest of the world that America is a trailer Park. Considering Obama no longer has to worry about being elected, I wonder what sort of retaliation he has in mind. Because, measured response or no, you don't pimpslap a Chicago brother without expecting payback.

[HairOfTheDog]

Obama said the comment about the 10 year plan with Iran march 2^nd. Which was a day before the Netenyahu speech you are correct in that aspect.

My post was correct in all aspects, mister.

Yes, the 10 year freeze came up in March 2^nd meetings and hit the press then. The freeze frame is a sticking point in the negotiations.

The goal of current negotiations with Iran has always been clearly stated as trying reach a diplomatic agreement for Iran to roll back its nuclear enrichment program and allow for inspections, in exchange for having sanctions relieved and lifted. That's also a sticking point -- Iran wants sanctions lifted more quickly than we and our negotiating partners want to lift them.

It has always been clearly stated that the ball was in Iran's court to accept the conditions of an agreement laid out by the US and P5. It has never been stated that reaching a deal is a sure thing, nor has it been stated that the US and P5 are giving up on efforts to reach a good deal with Iran because of Netanyahu's opinions.

Here's the transcript of Obama's Nov. 23, 2013 announcement that talks had begun with Iran, for reference. http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-vid...transcript

[Maggot]

When reading the transcript I see nothing of driving Iran off the face of the earth and pushing them into the see. I see a head of state trying to stop a country very close that has said as much. He came into the serpents mouth and sharpened its teeth in defense of the one thing that could surely do as much. I do not see women in Israel being deprived of education nor the cutting off of hands for thievery.
I did not watch the speech. I like doing that because I can see tye body language and the intensity of a person, but like I said I read the transcript (it's very short) and it brought tears to my eyes..........


















..............NOT! Have you read it? Ma chapeau favorit est?

[Maggot]

The methodology of Congress inviting a foreign head of state without consulting our own president is a stupid idea that is likely to backfire on them. Not only does it strain the relationship with Israel, practically forcing Obama to answer in some fashion, but it also makes our own leaders look weak and petty to the rest of the world. Boehner did the equivalent of showing the rest of the world that America is a trailer Park. Considering Obama no longer has to worry about being elected, I wonder what sort of retaliation he has in mind. Because, measured response or no, you don't pimpslap a Chicago brother without expecting payback.

They are weak and petty. Hate to say it of our own elected officials but like Kryptonite to Superman, Truth does the same to them.

[HairOfTheDog]

..............NOT! Have you read it? Ma chapeau favorit est?

Your favorite hat is...............Yamaka? Mulit-colored propeller beanie? Ten gallon cowboy hat autographed by Cliven Bundy? Haha.

I think you, my wonderful wormy one, are sometimes too extreme and close-minded to see things objectively or to consider the cost/benefit scenarios in present-day foreign relations/negotiations.

I believe that you think my support of the US sometimes pursuing diplomatic solutions and deals with those whom we have long-standing ideological, religious, and lifestyle differences makes me a wrong, unicorn-chasing, effin' liberal. I accept that.

And, hey, it's probably more interesting than always being in agreement or pretending to be.

I don't wanna see Iran blown off the face of the earth into the sea, nor do I wanna see that happen to Israel or any other country. I don't think that's the only or wisest solution to survival and freedom; that should be the very last resort, IMO.

When I was a teen, I read a lot about past world leaders, including Richard Nixon. I read all about what a paranoid fearful man he was in some ways (hello, Putin). All about Watergate. All about his life; biography. I wasn't a fan of the man personally. BUT, I was a big fan of how he negotiated and re-set relations with China -- a long-standing "enemy" of America; one with a huge effin' army who'd declared war on us in the past; one who also happened to have a huge potential export consumer base.

I thought Ronald Reagan was an interesting old dude, good at image-building, speeches, and delegating (key to his success, IMO). I supported Ronald Reagan's negotiations towards ending the arms race and setting the stage for ending the long-standing cold war with the USSR (though I disagreed with some of his other acts in office).

Point being: I sense that there is nothing that President Obama (to whom I'm indifferent on a personal level and with whose policies I often disagree) could do or attempt that you wouldn't look at negatively from the get-go. I think he rubs you so wrong that your dislike of the man prevents you from considering the issues clearly. That's my impression.

And, that's the truth. So let me have it!!!

[FAHQTOO]

Not to worry Maggotyboo...you're not alone, I agree with you.

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't think Maggot would worry about anything that I think when it comes to people's political views. But, maybe he or someone will wanna bat it around -- we haven't had a debate in here in a while.

As for Netanyahu, I think he's full of shit and a war-monger cry-baby. I didn't used to think that, but over the last several years, he's really gone over the edge, in my opinion.


^ Really, Bibi?........No. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was part of the Bush administration.

Aside from his exaggerated claims about Iran's nuclear capacity...He lied about supporting a two state solution and is instead pushing apartheid. He gets billions of dollars of defense support from the US every year and then cries to the world about lack of US support and tries to undermine his ally's presidency. He refuses to acknowledge international law in regards to settlement expansion and announces a new one being erected in the West Bank immediately following the last war with Gaza. He tells all European Jews to move to Israel when European leaders are pushing for unity and the exact opposite message following terror attacks, etc...

I did agree with Israel's right to respond to bomb lobs and tunnel activity in Gaza last summer and I don't doubt for a minute that Hamas has set up some bases in civilian areas, intentionally. I wish Israel's response had been more measured, though.

Anyway, I hope he's not re-elected, but I think he will be. I'm interested in what people see as strong, admirable or righteous in him as a leader at this point and why the US should refuse to at least talk with Iran or any other country if there's a possibility for a mutually-beneficial agreement.

[FAHQTOO]

[quote=

I hope he's not re-elected, but I think he will be. I'm interested in what people see as strong, admirable or righteous in him as a leader at this point.
[/quote]

Of course he will be re-elected. His people probably get a warm fuzzy feeling inside when they see their leader doing everything he can to keep them and Israel safe.

I'm not much for debate...just throwing my opinion out there.

I do find the above question quite ridiculous when you see how our own clown of a leader is handling things in our own country...oh wait, he's NOT.

What do you see strong, righteous or admirable in Obama? He's not anything close to a leader. He's a divider.

[crash]

What do you see strong, righteous or admirable in Obama? He's not anything close to a leader. He's a divider.

I hope you plan on living a long time if you ever expect to see a leader that unifies the opinion of the population and appears 'strong, righteous and admirable'

Ever since the birth of social media, there hasn't been a leader in the free world that hasn't been on the end of a polarised public. People are too keen to jump on the negativity bandwagon and bag the shit out of, ridicule, personally attack and debase their leader rather than swallow a little bit of pain, a little bit of pride and a lump of humility that the other side won and get in line. This has made politics in the western world a popularity contest rather than a policy debate.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here, shit, I'm guilty of it myself at times, but as a collective public we're all the tail wagging the dog, we are the dividers.

[blueberryhill]

What do you see strong, righteous or admirable in Obama? He's not anything close to a leader. He's a divider.

I hope you plan on living a long time if you ever expect to see a leader that unifies the opinion of the population and appears 'strong, righteous and admirable'

Ever since the birth of social media, there hasn't been a leader in the free world that hasn't been on the end of a polarised public. People are too keen to jump on the negativity bandwagon and bag the shit out of, ridicule, personally attack and debase their leader rather than swallow a little bit of pain, a little bit of pride and a lump of humility that the other side won and get in line. This has made politics in the western world a popularity contest rather than a policy debate.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here, shit, I'm guilty of it myself at times, but as a collective public we're all the tail wagging the dog, we are the dividers.

Crash, you took the words right out of my mouth....I totally agree that it is the Obama haters who are the dividers here. He was elected so you all should deal with it and stand together as a truly "United" States..I have never seen such negativity on the part of the people who bash him on the social media....It does, indeed, make us look like idiots to the rest of the World. Just quit bashing and blaming the Presidency for every thing under the Sun. Considering the Congress he has to tolerate, he has tried to resolve the issues which we face as a Nation. Mr. Obama has been called every name in the book by the citizens of this country....In the past, we have always tried to work together for the good of all the people, regardless of the political party of the current Presidency.
Playing games at the expense of our security, financial well being, education, military action, immigration, human rights, etc. is dangerous and not necessary if everyone in Congress, plus the Presidency and his staff, acted like adults. My God, what a laughing stock we are because of the Obama haters out there. You, my friends have caused the division in our country, not Mr. Obama. How about that stock market........I lost everything under the leadership of Mr. Bush, even my Mutual funds went belly up....I am still trying to recover from those years...and thankfully, Mr. Obama took a lot of risks, and hopefully, this Bull market will keep on rockin'
Obama care is a positive for most people and my insurance premium went
down...Just about every culture/society takes care of the ill and poor....and no, i agree that there is a lot of abuse of people collecting welfare when they don't qualify and who violate the system. Definitely need to crack down on all the fraud which can destroy Gov't programs meant to help people who are down and out. There are too many programs which overlap each other at the expense of efficiency...
I didn't care for Mr. Bush, but I didn't go around calling him names and accuse him of being a traitor, a non resident of the US, a Muslim, etc..... That is so childish and immature...Mr. Obama's step father was Muslim, but he was around six years old at the time, and he is a Christian today. If we, as citizens of the U.S., don't respect our President, how do you expect other countries to respect the USA?

[HairOfTheDog]

Of course he will be re-elected. His people probably get a warm fuzzy feeling inside when they see their leader doing everything he can to keep them and Israel safe.

I'm not much for debate...just throwing my opinion out there.

I do find the above question quite ridiculous when you see how our own clown of a leader is handling things in our own country...oh wait, he's NOT.

What do you see strong, righteous or admirable in Obama? He's not anything close to a leader. He's a divider.

Well, you did answer the question about what you find admirable about Netanyahu. You think that Netanyahu's aim is to keep his people and his country safe. That may well be something he feels strongly about. I sure hope so, all leaders should and I agree that it is admirable. But, I don't personally see how that can be viewed as Netanyahu's sole or primary driver in many cases.

I don't think continuing to unnecessarily build settlements in the West Bank helps keep his people safe, for example. It doesn't do anything but say "fuck you, I do what I want" to the Palestinians, the United Nations, the US, NATO, the Arab world, and just about every country on the planet which views it as a violation of international law and a sleazy repressive power play. If he'd stop doing it, some tensions could be lessened in the admittedly dangerous global neighborhood in which he resides.

I also don't think his attempts to dictate US foreign relations policy helps keep his people safe. To me, it jeopardizes his country's future security and demonstrates an unwillingness to work towards progress. The US has strong interest in preventing Iran from developing nuclear WMD capabilities, of which, Israel has a shitload. Were Iran to launch a bomb at Israel, Iran would be dust -- assuming Israel continues to keep and build its nuclear stockpile (no reason why it won't, it doesn't allow monitoring or inspections) AND keeps its financial supporters and allies. Iran knows this.

I don't think it keeps his people safe -- I'm assuming you mean the people living in Israel -- to position Jews around the world as "his people" and implore them to migrate to Israel. I think it promotes an isolationist agenda and demonstrates a total lack of concern for the wishes of European leaders. It strikes me as a power-play, not an attempt to secure the safety of Jews in and out of Israel. Of course, if his migration initiative works, it will also give him a new excuse to build on Palestinian-marked land. It's ironic, to me; Netanyahu claims that Israel is in constant threat of being blown off the face of the earth by Iran -- Iran being right on the verge of having a nuclear bomb and all (he's made that same claim multiple times in public addresses since 1996, btw). So, why the hell would he want to entice all European Jews into one central highly dangerous target location if his primary driver is safety?

Having said all of that, I get why he wants the US and other countries to be very cautious of Iran and why it benefits him in many ways to maintain mutual enemies with the US. I completely understand why the persecution of Jews in the past is something that cannot be forgotten and factors into the mindset. I agree that threats and rhetoric towards the destruction of Israel cannot be ignored. I believe that Israel has the right to respond to aggression from Palestine. But, I believe there are better ways to go about addressing the issues and I don't think Netanyahu cares to consider progress or working in partnership. In my view, he wants to keep things as they are at all costs, and that's dangerous.

As for Obama, I probably disagree with as many of his policies as I agree with. I don't think he's been a particularly strong leader when it comes to the economy and domestic policies. He's sometimes smug and I wish he'd refrain from public comment when it comes to criminal investigations -- it hurts, not helps. The more I know about the Bergdahl negotiation, the less I agree with it. Etc...

On the plus side, I think he's right not to embrace the "nuke the shit outta 'em" stance against entire countries. I think he was right not to "take out" Assad and leave a vacuum in Syria that could have been filled quickly by what we now know was the burgeoning IS organization (and other terrorist factions fighting to take control of the country). I believe ridding Assad's regime of chemical weapons was a good tactical negotiation. I think that facilitating a peaceful removal of the unsuccessful repressive (previously US-backed) Iraqi government was the righteous and smart play to motivate Iraqis to resist IS. I'm all for moving towards normalizing relations with Cuba, finally. I support Obama's decisions to air strike IS in Iraq, to partner with the Kurds, and to eventually airstrike Syria. I admire his leadership commitment and ability to build an international coalition inclusive of several Middle Eastern nations to fight a mutual terrorist threat, rather than the US and western allies doing it alone or storming in with ground troops. (As for withdrawing troops from Iraq in the first place, I don't know if that was a tactical error and could have staved off IS, for a while at least.)

Okay, I'm done. If you've read this post without nodding off half way through, hats off.

[Duchess]

There are those who didn't like the last Prez and there are those who don't like this one and there will be others who won't like the next one. Nothing changes.

I can't stand Netanyahu. I'd defend the people he fights against before I'd ever defend him.

[Maggot]

In the Iranian negotiations don't be surprised to find Iraq in the deal. Iran has always wanted them and with their military being used to deal with ISIS there they have a foot in the door. Many in Iraq feel that Iran already owns them and I can only imagine that Iraq will be a good chess piece in the nuclear negotiations. The Iranian Mullahs would be glad to accommodate any treaty for that piece of cake.
Kuwait wont be so easy 10 years from now.

[crash]

I wish he'd refrain from public comment when it comes to criminal investigations -- it hurts, not helps.

I haven't really taken a lot of notice on his commenting on criminal investigations, other side of the world and all.. Has his commenting been in line with the majority of public opinion? If so, it probably hasn't hurt his approval by the majority of the public.

ETA: Oh, and yes, I did read all of the rest. A few times. As always, you make some very good points as well as provide a ton of food for thought, Ms. D. I didn't nod off even once..