BY GOD, IT'S MY RIGHT TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST YOU!

[blueberryhill]

i agree with all the posters upstream....but i do have to climb up on my bandwagon for a moment. I am not insulting Catholics on here, but......one of my grandsons was raised Catholic, however, in the year 2015, we are saying maybe this gay guy should move on to a secular school, etc. (I totally agree, who needs the aggravation), but here we have a "Christian" school saying he is violated one of their doctrines...Do you think we need to take a harder look at Christian doctrines and have we progressed that much since 1645...well yes, but still.....Guess maybe I prefer not be identified as a Christian in today's world because there is just too much dang hate wrapped up in that word. think I will pass and continue to say, I am a spiritual person, but maybe not a Christian..getting down off soapbox, now, but in closing, let me say. If loving you means I can't be a Christian, then so be it...I believe the Catholic church needs to do a whole bunch of soul searching, and quit applying double standard by hiding their pedophiles. Yes, it has improved, but do u see something wrong with this picture and firing a gay guy? Amen, in the name of a higher power

[Duchess]

I think our Pope will make strides in that area, BH. I agree that so many of the rules are archaic and need to fall by the wayside like other rules have. We used to eat fish every Friday, I don't think that is done any more and I can remember having to cover my hair before I went into church as a kid, I don't think that is done anymore either. There are a few things that are no longer adhered to.

[FAHQTOO]

I think our Pope will make strides in that area, BH. I agree that so many of the rules are archaic and need to fall by the wayside like other rules have. We used to eat fish every Friday, I don't think that is done any more and I can remember having to cover my hair before I went into church as a kid, I don't think that is done anymore either. There are a few things that are no longer adhered to.

My Mom was raised Catholic. She says she opened up the paper one day and the front page headline was "The Pope says it's okay to eat meat on Fridays". She had been questioning a lot of the bullshit Catholic rules and rituals for a few years...after she saw that in the paper, she was done. The problem with the Catholic is that they think the Pope is God. They don't see him as a normal man that sins everyday like the rest of us.

[Duchess]

The problem with the Catholic is that they think the Pope is God. They don't see him as a normal man that sins everyday like the rest of us.

Agreed. I've never viewed any Pope as God but I know "good" Catholics do. I especially like this Pope because he's the exact opposite of every Pope I've seen in my lifetime. He's real. I can't think of a better word than that, he's just a genuine person who is very approachable. I'm not a religious person but I do believe in God, my God not the one that lives in the Bible Belt and snacks on brimstone.

[Jimbone]

Any Catholic who believes the Pope is God is an idiot, and didn't pay attention in Sunday School. That is not at all a teaching of the church.

ETA: also, they certainly can fire this guy for being gay. It directly goes against the beliefs of the organization he works for. Just as a jewish center would fire a secretary for being an anti-semite. Or a islamic center canning a moderator for eating ham and bacon sandwiches.

[HairOfTheDog]

Jesus Christ Jimbone.

Yes, the school can refuse to renew the contract, on both religious and legal grounds (the private school would not have needed a religious freedom act to legally terminate the teacher, but it doesn't hurt them to have it in the event that he files a wrongful termination suit). Everyone gets that.

How the fuck you've managed to compare a gay Christian man -- a man who loves the Catholic students he's teaching -- to an anti-semite working as a secretary at a Jewish center is beyond me.

Please enlighten me in regards to how a loving gay Christian person can be compared to an anti-semite who practices religious hatred, discrimination, and prejudice.

[Jimbone]

My point has nothing to do with him. I was commenting on the beliefs of the organization he works for, which I said. They believe homosexuality is wrong, and can not renew his contract (read: fire) him because of that.

The jewish center also would be able to terminate a person they find out who holds beliefs that go against their religion. In my example, while hyperbolic, was someone who obviously goes against the jewish religion.

I'm not comparing a gay Christian teacher to an anti-semite or a bacon eater. I'm comparing the abilities of organizations to not employ people who go against their beliefs.

[HairOfTheDog]

Okay, Jimbone.

[Jimbone]

Sorry you took it the wrong way; but also glad I could clarify it in case anyone else misread my intended point.

[HairOfTheDog]

Seriously Jimbone, I think you're full of shit.

You did, in fact, compare a loving gay Christian man working at a Catholic school to a hateful anti-Semite working at a Jewish Center. There's no doubt about that -- people can read, comprehend, and remember what's posted just a few comments upthread.

But, that's all it is...an ignorant post on an internet forum. No big deal.

[Jimbone]

You can think whatever you want. I think you're full of shit for not being able to recognize that what was being compared was religious organizations not having to employ people who directly contradict their beliefs.

If I was comparing people, I would have said "Just as an anti-semite working at a jewish center." But I didn't. I said, "Just as a jewish center can fire...just as an islamic center canning...". I know it's complex, but words and their order do matter. Especially when you are trying to insinuate that I compared something I did not.

Yes, people can read my comment upthread and make their own decision. I'll leave it to them, not you, to be the arbiter of what there is or isn't doubt of.

[HairOfTheDog]

I didn't insinuate anything Jimbone. It's not complex; I straight-up expressed exactly what I meant.

There is no doubt that you posted this -- it doesn't take an arbiter to determine that:
they (Catholic school/org) certainly can fire this guy for being gay. It directly goes against the beliefs of the organization he works for. Just as a jewish center would fire a secretary for being an anti-semite.

I think your comparison of a Catholic organization firing a teacher because he's gay to a Jewish organization firing a secretary because he passionately hates Jews is strange and weak. That's all.

I don't know what anybody else thinks of the comparison, if anything.

[HairOfTheDog]

I agree that the school has a right to fire him but I don't like that they can. I don't like the unfairness of it.

I think religious organizations and politicians are struggling with how to reconcile their long-held stances against homosexuality in today's culture; struggling to stick to old conventional wisdom without losing the support of a growing percentage of the population who support fair and equal rights for gays.

Here's a story from a few weeks back about a Catholic School teacher who was fired for the exact opposite reason that Matthew Eledge is being let go.

SOMERVILLE, NJ, March 18, 2015.. Controversy struck when Patricia Jannuzzi, a theology teacher at Immaculata High School in Somerville, New Jersey, posted on Facebook that she opposed the legal arguments homosexual activists used to persuade the Supreme Court to redefine marriage.



Immaculata alumnus Scott Lyons sent a message to Jannuzzi, posting it on his own Facebook page. He admitted, “I found your classes and teaching during my time at IHS to be focused on love and acceptance.” But he said he now has “a husband and we have a child together.”

“[T]he words that you have been throwing out there are detrimental to the well-being and health of the youth that you inspire. I am certain that the Pope himself would take issue with your extreme point of view on homosexuality,” he said.

Soon began a movement for the Catholic school to silence its theology teacher.

“This kind of behavior needs to be stopped,” a petition drawn up on Change.org by Tom Robinson, a 2001 Immaculata graduate, says. “There is a line between believing in God and professing anti-homosexual sentiment to the public.”

“We are asking for action to be taken and hate speech to stop at Immaculata,” including a “school-wide Stop Hate Speech awareness day and sensativity [sic] training for students and teachers would go a long way,” the petition continues.

The high school responded in an official statement that “the opinions reflected in [Jannuzzi's] posts do not in any way represent the philosophy, mission, or student experience of this high school.”

Since the Catholic school's curriculum and identity are deeply “rooted in the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, the school takes this situation very seriously. As a result, we took immediate action and mandated that the teacher involved permanently deactivate her public Facebook page, which she has done.”

During the feeding frenzy, some of her students defended her as a teacher and as a human being.

But, ultimately, the school announced that Jannuzzi "has been put on administrative leave, effective immediately." The letter, signed by church pastor Monsignor Seamus Brennan and principal Jean Kline, professed its "intolerance of discriminatory behaviors of any kind."

"Please be assured that we will do everything we can in this trying time to make clear that the philosophy of Immaculata High School is one of inclusion rooted in the teachings of Jesus Christ," they wrote.
----------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion, Jannuzzi's firing is unfortunate too. Like Eledge, she was reportedly an excellent and committed teacher.

As I see it, she was simply exercising her first amendment rights off of school grounds.

While I personally disagree with her beliefs, I do not think her statements equate to hate speech.

[FAHQTOO]

I don't know what anybody else thinks of the comparison, if anything.

I got the jist of JBs post...for what it's worth.

I believe the gay guy needs to be let go after this school year. I don't think there's anything unfair about it. He went for, and got a job at a private religious school knowing they don't believe in, or condone his lifestyle. He can teach anywhere.

[HairOfTheDog]

What do you think about Mrs. Jannuzzi's firing, FAHQTOO? (and anybody else)

I strongly disagree with the beliefs she posted on Facebook, but respect her right to express what she feels and don't think she deserved to be fired over it.

Like you, however, I support private businesses' and organizations' right to terminate employment for conduct that violates their standards.

It's interesting to me how religious organizations are struggling with gay issues these days. There's no consistent stance even within the same religion, as far as I can see. At present, a gay teacher is being pushed out of a Catholic School for being engaged to another gay male, meanwhile a straight teacher in a different city is being pushed out of a job at a Catholic School for condemning gay marriage.

[blueberryhill]

I agree that the school has a right to fire him but I don't like that they can. I don't like the unfairness of it.

I think religious organizations and politicians are struggling with how to reconcile their long-held stances against homosexuality in today's culture; struggling to stick to old conventional wisdom without losing the support of a growing percentage of the population who support fair and equal rights for gays.

Here's a story from a few weeks back about a Catholic School teacher who was fired for the exact opposite reason that Matthew Eledge is being let go.

SOMERVILLE, NJ, March 18, 2015.. Controversy struck when Patricia Jannuzzi, a theology teacher at Immaculata High School in Somerville, New Jersey, posted on Facebook that she opposed the legal arguments homosexual activists used to persuade the Supreme Court to redefine marriage.



Immaculata alumnus Scott Lyons sent a message to Jannuzzi, posting it on his own Facebook page. He admitted, “I found your classes and teaching during my time at IHS to be focused on love and acceptance.” But he said he now has “a husband and we have a child together.”

“[T]he words that you have been throwing out there are detrimental to the well-being and health of the youth that you inspire. I am certain that the Pope himself would take issue with your extreme point of view on homosexuality,” he said.

Soon began a movement for the Catholic school to silence its theology teacher.

“This kind of behavior needs to be stopped,” a petition drawn up on Change.org by Tom Robinson, a 2001 Immaculata graduate, says. “There is a line between believing in God and professing anti-homosexual sentiment to the public.”

“We are asking for action to be taken and hate speech to stop at Immaculata,” including a “school-wide Stop Hate Speech awareness day and sensativity [sic] training for students and teachers would go a long way,” the petition continues.

The high school responded in an official statement that “the opinions reflected in [Jannuzzi's] posts do not in any way represent the philosophy, mission, or student experience of this high school.”

Since the Catholic school's curriculum and identity are deeply “rooted in the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, the school takes this situation very seriously. As a result, we took immediate action and mandated that the teacher involved permanently deactivate her public Facebook page, which she has done.”

During the feeding frenzy, some of her students defended her as a teacher and as a human being.

But, ultimately, the school announced that Jannuzzi "has been put on administrative leave, effective immediately." The letter, signed by church pastor Monsignor Seamus Brennan and principal Jean Kline, professed its "intolerance of discriminatory behaviors of any kind."

"Please be assured that we will do everything we can in this trying time to make clear that the philosophy of Immaculata High School is one of inclusion rooted in the teachings of Jesus Christ," they wrote.
----------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion, Jannuzzi's firing is unfortunate too. Like Eledge, she was reportedly an excellent and committed teacher.

As I see it, she was simply exercising her first amendment rights off of school grounds.

While I personally disagree with her beliefs, I do not think her statements equate to hate speech.

Maybe her statements do not equate to hate, but I have to ask myself if you should be a teacher, if you are going to display ignorance about the issue of homosexuality. Teachers are under appreciated and underpaid, but i think her personal morality compass needs to stay out of the classroom...can she do an effective job of teaching youth with apparent ignorance of the subject matter? She needs to present what we know about human sexuality without her own personal bias if she is to be an effective teacher. This is different from the gay guy in Catholic school. He wasn't expressing opinion on this issue or teaching sexuality in the classroom. He just was a gay man....and because school doctrine clashed with his "lifestyle," he was terminated from his job. In summary, it is not the job of the teacher to instill specific morals, lifestyles, belief systems, etc into the minds of the young students. In this case, I think, she should have zipped her mouth.....as I should also do, at times....

[HairOfTheDog]

I understand your points blueberry and agree with some of them.

What bothers me is that she was fired based on her political and religious views as posted on Facebook, outside of the classroom.

There's no claim that she was preaching those views on-the-job to her students. Does that change your position at all?

[blueberryhill]

I understand your points blueberry and agree with some of them.

What bothers me is that she was fired based on her political and religious views as posted on Facebook, outside of the classroom.

There's no claim that she was preaching those views on-the-job to her students. Does that change your position at all?

yes, that was my hesitation at first, but in the comments after that, didn't she receive comments from former students saying how she adversely affected the students in her class about the subject of homosexuality. Maybe I need to go back and reread the comment from the guy who said that. I thought he was saying she was doing her students a disservice through her teachings on issue. I will go back and peruse this...cause I know you are usually right and I usually agree with you....

[blueberryhill]

I agree that the school has a right to fire him but I don't like that they can. I don't like the unfairness of it.

Immaculata alumnus Scott Lyons sent a message to Jannuzzi, posting it on his own Facebook page. He admitted, “I found your classes and teaching during my time at IHS to be focused on love and acceptance.” But he said he now has “a husband and we have a child together.”

“[T]he words that you have been throwing out there are detrimental to the well-being and health of the youth that you inspire. I am certain that the Pope himself would take issue with your extreme point of view on homosexuality,” he said.

Soon began a movement for the Catholic school to silence its theology teacher.

“This kind of behavior needs to be stopped,” a petition drawn up on Change.org by Tom Robinson, a 2001 Immaculata graduate, says. “There is a line between believing in God and professing anti-homosexual sentiment to the public.”

“We are asking for action to be taken and hate speech to stop at Immaculata,” including a “school-wide Stop Hate Speech awareness day and sensativity [sic] training for students and teachers would go a long way,” the petition continues.


----------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion, Jannuzzi's firing is unfortunate too. Like Eledge, she was reportedly an excellent and committed teacher.

As I see it, she was simply exercising her first amendment rights off of school grounds.

While I personally disagree with her beliefs, I do not think her statements equate to hate speech.

Maybe her statements do not equate to hate, but I have to ask myself if you should be a teacher, if you are going to display ignorance about the issue of homosexuality. Teachers are under appreciated and underpaid, but i think her personal morality compass needs to stay out of the classroom...can she do an effective job of teaching youth with apparent ignorance of the subject matter? She needs to present what we know about human sexuality without her own personal bias if she is to be an effective teacher. This is different from the gay guy in Catholic school. He wasn't expressing opinion on this issue or teaching sexuality in the classroom. He just was a gay man....and because school doctrine clashed with his "lifestyle," he was terminated from his job. In summary, it is not the job of the teacher to instill specific morals, lifestyles, belief systems, etc into the minds of the young students. In this case, I think, she should have zipped her mouth.....as I should also do, at times....

O.K. I reread the above, and i based my opinion on what alumnus Scott Lyons wrote and subsequent remarks in that paragraph which apparently was the catalyst for the firing of this teacher. If I am misreading this, please let me know....

[HairOfTheDog]

It's a confusing story, blueberry.

Alumni, as opposed to current students, were reportedly the ones to first see the Facebook post and start the protest against Mrs. Jannuzzi. One of them is related to Susan Sarandon, who also chimed in.

I just found an update to the story; looks like Mrs. Jannuzzi has been reinstated, with stipulations about the tone of her public statements.

The school and religious leaders went back and forth, eventually deciding that while her views posted on Facebook were not against their standards, the tone was.

Here's the latest story with more details: http://www.mycentraljersey.com/story/new.../25587809/