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Jeb Clinton is a burglar albeit a skinny, savvy, intelligent burglar. He walks his small dog everyday through an influential neighborhood observing the comings and goings of certain particular domiciles.
His click is to let his dog loose and he chases him into the backyards of likely clients. His dog is also a watchdog.
Jeb lets the dog loose one day and he chases it towards the backyard of an empty residence. He ties the dog to a root and squeezes through a 12" gap between the house and the pool house. In his haste he trips on a statue of the virgin Mary and falls into the pool hitting his head on the way into the deep blue sleep. He dies.
Finding the visitor floating in the pool the owners call the police.
The zoning laws are reviewed and the gap should only have been 10"
Is the homeowner liable for the death? Poor Jeb was going to rob the place but the only 2 witnesses are the dog and a dead body. No tools were found.
He ain't heavy, he's my brother.
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(06-03-2015, 05:30 PM)Maggot Wrote: Jeb Clinton is a burglar albeit a skinny, savvy, intelligent burglar. He walks his small dog everyday through an influential neighborhood observing the comings and goings of certain particular domiciles.
His click is to let his dog loose and he chases him into the backyards of likely clients. His dog is also a watchdog.
Jeb lets the dog loose one day and he chases it towards the backyard of an empty residence. He ties the dog to a root and squeezes through a 12" gap between the house and the pool house. In his haste he trips on a statue of the virgin Mary and falls into the pool hitting his head on the way into the deep blue sleep. He dies.
Finding the visitor floating in the pool the owners call the police.
The zoning laws are reviewed and the gap should only have been 10"
Is the homeowner liable for the death? Poor Jeb was going to rob the place but the only 2 witnesses are the dog and a dead body. No tools were found.
In a court of law, the homeowner would be liable. There is no way to prove the intent of the would be burglar and he met his demise because of a discrepancy of 2" which allowed him to squeeze through the gap between house and pool house......or the homeowner wouldn't be liable, because the dog was off leash which is against the law in this community and thus, would be burglar was chasing an off leash dog which was itself, illegal. Depends on whether I am the Prosecutor or the Defense attorney....maybe I overlooked a clue, "the dog is also a watchdog."
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Jeb's family could file a civil suit against the homeowners due to the gap not being up to code, if entering the backyard does not qualify as trespassing.
But, I doubt that they'd win in most civil courts, especially if Jeb has a criminal record for burglary or robbery which might be admitted into evidence.
Even though it would be impossible to prove Jeb's intent for entering the property unless he told someone or wrote about his intent to rob the place, I think most judges would rule against the plaintiffs since Jeb was an adult who had no good reason to be there. It might be hard to prove that he'd squeezed through the faulty gap anyway. A defense attorney could suggest other ways Jeb could have entered.
If the dog had been free inside the backyard, I think the plaintiffs would stand a better chance in most civil courts as they might be able to convince the judge that Jeb died in the process of trying to round-up the dog which had squeezed through the faulty gap (assuming there was no leashing requirement in the area).
There are some whacky judges out there. But, I don't think most judges would find the homeowners liable.
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If negligence is proven, the homeowner is liable. It's that simple. In this case you have the zoning laws that weren't followed and the statue placed where somone could trip, hit their head and drown in the pool.
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Jeb is a career criminal with the same MO being used with a few slight variations. He has been arrested for burglary at least 5 times in his 27 yrs on this earth.
He ain't heavy, he's my brother.
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(06-03-2015, 06:35 PM)Maggot Wrote: Jeb is a career criminal with the same MO being used with a few slight variations. He has been arrested for burglary at least 5 times in his 27 yrs on this earth.
Well, the Judge will not allow his past record be entered as evidence, because again, you can't assume in a court of law, that even with his criminal record, that his intent was to rob this residence. Homeowner guilty.....
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That's true Gunnar. IF negligence was proven.
In Maggot's scenario, the fact that there was a 2-inch deviation from code is not proof on its own of negligence leading to death.
Whether the homeowners were deemed liable would depend on the circumstantial and physical evidence in this case because there were no witnesses to say how Jeb wound up on the property. And, the court would know he wasn't after his dog because the dog was tied up outside the backyard.
"The deceased was seen in the area chasing his dog. He is known to case houses and has a history of hopping fences to get inside. Mr. Clinton could have hopped the wood fence or entered through the rope pull gate on the southside of the property after securing his dog on the northside, your honor. No DNA or fingerprints were found at any of the possible access points, including the gap between the house and the pool house. There's no evidence that Mr. Clinton died as result of the zoning infraction. However, I present into evidence our independent expert's report showing that Beanpole Clinton would have been able to squeeze through a 10 inch gap as well as a 12 inch gap, if he was so inclined," said the defense attorney.
That's just an example of how the homeowners might not be found liable.
If Jeb's DNA was all over the gap and nowhere else, he couldn't fit through a gap that was 2 inches narrower, and no previous criminal actions could be presented, then I think it would be more of a given that his death would be ruled a result of the homeowner's negligence.
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whoops, sorry, didn't realise this was in the crime forum.
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(06-03-2015, 06:39 PM)blueberryhill Wrote: (06-03-2015, 06:35 PM)Maggot Wrote: Jeb is a career criminal with the same MO being used with a few slight variations. He has been arrested for burglary at least 5 times in his 27 yrs on this earth.
Well, the Judge will not allow his past record be entered as evidence, because again, you can't assume in a court of law, that even with his criminal record, that his intent was to rob this residence. Homeowner guilty.....
Even if the judge didn't allow it (which isn't a given in civil court), the defense attorney will depose witnesses and could get them to open the door to Jeb's criminal convictions.
There's no definite answer to Maggot's scenario in terms of a legal ruling -- it depends on other unknown factors, IMO.
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(06-03-2015, 07:07 PM)crash Wrote: whoops, sorry, didn't realise this was in the crime forum.
You're cool, crash.
It's not that rigid in here, especially in hypothetical cases.
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(06-03-2015, 06:35 PM)Maggot Wrote: Jeb is a career criminal with the same MO being used with a few slight variations. He has been arrested for burglary at least 5 times in his 27 yrs on this earth.
I'm assuming that there's a history of people using the gap to gain entry to the backyard and there was no "keep out sign" posted. If not, then Jeb would in fact qualify as an unanticipated trespasser and the homeowners are much less likely to be deemed liable for his death (regardless as to whether his criminal record was presented in court).
While trespassing laws vary, I found some general cross-state guidelines:
A trespasser is someone who is not authorized to be on the property at issue. Landowners are not obligated to protect trespassers who enter their property without permission, but they cannot willfully injure them. Also, if a landowner knows -- or should know -- that there are frequent trespassers on his/her property, he or she will be liable for any injuries caused by an unsafe condition on the property if:
1) the condition is one the owner created or maintained;
2) the condition was likely to cause death or serious bodily harm;
3) the condition was such that the owner had reason to believe trespassers would not discover it; and,
4) the owner failed to exercise reasonable care to warn trespassers of the condition and the risk presented.
http://realestate.findlaw.com/land-use-l...uries.html
There are a lot of unknown variables in your scenario Mags.
Is there an answer that you're after or did you just make up the scenario for brainstorming purposes?
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If some asshole squeezes into my private back yard to snoop or for whatever reason and gets hurt, too bad. It's ridiculous that two stupid inches makes a homeowner liable for someone else's stupidity.
Devil Money Stealing Aunt 
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(06-03-2015, 07:30 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: (06-03-2015, 07:07 PM)crash Wrote: whoops, sorry, didn't realise this was in the crime forum.
You're cool, crash.
It's not that rigid in here, especially in hypothetical cases.
Well, I am not sure it is hypothetical. It could be that Maggs is just relating his latest real life "experience." Does he have a small dog and is he a skinny guy? He survived his dip in the pool apparently..
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Maybe the guy that came into his back yard didn't..
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(06-03-2015, 09:00 PM)crash Wrote: Maybe the guy that came into his back yard didn't..
By gummy, Mr. Crash, I think you are on to something, mate! Of course, he is being sued and he doesn't think it is fair or legal and none of us wanna be crime sleuths will say, of course, homeowner is not guilty in light of intent of the would be thief....
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 naaa I was just tossing a crime scenario I thought up because I thought it would be fun. Besides he's pushing up tomato plants now.
He ain't heavy, he's my brother.
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I wonder what happened to Bluberry.
He ain't heavy, he's my brother.
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(08-17-2020, 12:21 PM)Maggot Wrote: I wonder what happened to Bluberry. Maybe she found her thrill on her hill.
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(08-17-2020, 12:21 PM)Maggot Wrote: I wonder what happened to Bluberry.
I could fucking care less about what happened to that bitch. She posted info about LC after LC died, that anyone could use to get personal information on her. Then dumbass Dutch put her on a fucking pedestal. 'Oh let's talk about the life and times of BBH' . Everybody was upset about the 1001 trolls that signed up as dead linda, ghost of linda, etc. But bbh soaked up the attention like it was her right to do so.
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