Making a Murderer -- DID STEVEN AVERY REALLY KILL TERESA HALBACH?

[Blindgreed1]

I absolutely think that Steven Avery and/or other members of the Avery family could be capable of killing Teresa and trying to cover their tracks.

Steven Avery himself claimed that his brothers were sexually violent and may have wanted to get rid of him for money reasons, etc... So, he's either cunning enough to lie about that to create doubt (with disregard about the impacts on his family), or members of the family are capable of the crime according to members of the family themselves.

Plus, a lot of unsophisticated and unintelligent criminals haven't gotten away with worse, and other such criminals have been convicted for worse. Many of the people sitting on death row are unsophisticated and unintelligent, some of them convicted based on very solid or almost irrefutable evidence of guilt, and still denying they did the crimes.

Still haven't had a chance to watch Making A Murderer though, and still open minded.

Interesting, so the Avery's can now completely erase DNA evidence from the bed, the key, the bullet that supposedly passed through her melon and the restraints. Not only that, but they can also completely erase any evidence of blood from the crime scene except for the drops of deer blood. Because they can tell the difference between Theresa's blood and the blood of the deer. Pretty fucking amazing for a family of morons with a collective IQ of 100.

[HairOfTheDog]

Reality rarely matches up with CSI and Criminal Minds. And, in this case, the Avery clan have themselves accused and implicated each other.

Having followed crime stories for a long time, I know that people who don't leave all types of physical evidence at crime scenes are often times what you refer to as 'morons'. A lot of criminals are convicted on strong circumstantial evidence or validated confessions, without having left physical evidence.

Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, IQ = 82. He killed at least 49 women over a 20 year period. During that time, he was married to a woman who had no clue. He worked a full-time job and was reliable and well-regarded. There was a large and committed LE task force poring over all of the crime scenes and evidence working in attempt to identify and catch the serial killer.

When Ridgway was finally caught, some people had a very hard time believing that such a simple-minded and seemingly nice man had been able to kill so many women, dump all the bodies without detection, and carry on a normal life without detection. But, he did, and he confessed in great detail.

It's also true that unsophisticated and unintelligent people (along with all other types) sometimes get wrongly convicted by unethical, corrupt and/or misleading cops and prosecutors. It happens, no doubt.

I don't know which of the two scenarios fits the Steven Avery case. Neither one is a stretch of the imagination for me (aside from the theory that the local LE killed an innocent woman themselves in order to frame Avery and avoid a pay out).

[Blindgreed1]

Reality rarely matches up with CSI and Criminal Minds. And, in this case, the Avery clan have themselves accused and implicated each other.

Having followed crime stories for a long time, I know that people who don't leave all types of physical evidence at crime scenes are often times what you refer to as 'morons'. A lot of criminals are convicted on strong circumstantial evidence or validated confessions, without having left physical evidence.

Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, IQ = 82. He killed at least 49 women over a 20 year period. During that time, he was married to a woman who had no clue. He worked a full-time job and was reliable and well-regarded. There was a large and committed LE task force poring over all of the crime scenes and evidence working in attempt to identify and catch the serial killer.

When Ridgway was finally caught, some people had a very hard time believing that such a simple-minded and seemingly nice man had been able to kill so many women, dump all the bodies without detection, and carry on a normal life without detection. But, he did, and he confessed in great detail.

It's also true that unsophisticated and unintelligent people (along with all other types) sometimes get wrongly convicted by unethical, corrupt and/or misleading cops and prosecutors. It happens, no doubt.

I don't know which of the two scenarios fits the Steven Avery case. Neither one is a stretch of the imagination for me (aside from the theory that the local LE killed an innocent woman themselves in order to frame Avery and avoid a pay out).

Yeah, you should actually watch the doc before commenting further.

Brendon: Yeah?
Mom: Yeah?
Brendon: I don't wanna miss the WWE match over this.
Mom: Why did you tell them all that then?
Brendon: I just guessed like I do in school. I don't know all that stuff. I just guessed what they told me.

______________________________

Cop: What did you do to her head? Something happened to her head. I need you to tell me what you did.
Brendon: Cut her hair?
Cop: Okay and what else did you do to her head. Something happened to her head. What did you do?
Brendon: Hit her?
Cop: Okay, I'm just going to say that we know you shot her in the head. Did you shoot her in the head?
Brendon: Yeah?

______________________________

Brendon: Yeah?
Mom: Yeah?
Brendon: The man said my story sounds fabricated. What zat mean?
Mom: I don't know?

[HairOfTheDog]

I should continue to comment and reply to questions about crime in general and this case specifically as I see fit, Gunnar. And, I will.

My comments are equally valid without having watched the series in full. Plus, I haven't made any judgments about the series, nor insisted that Avery is guilty or innocent.

You asked if I really think that one or more of the Averys could have really committed the crime, them being so moronic and all. My answer is "yes", it happens.

Based on having read about the crime and the trial, watched interviews of the families and Avery, reviewed court docs, and having followed many murder cases, a low-IQ murderer leaving no DNA wouldn't surprise me. And, a corrupt LE system facilitating a wrongful conviction wouldn't surprise me either.

[Blindgreed1]

I should continue to comment and reply to questions/comments about crime in general and this case specifically as I see fit, Gunnar. And, I will.

My comments are equally valid without having watched the series in full. Plus, I haven't made any judgments about the series, nor insisted that Avery is guilty or innocent.

You asked if I really think that one or more of the Averys could have really committed the crime, them being so moronic and all. My answer is "yes", it happens.

Based on having read about the crime and the trial, watched interviews of the families and Avery, reviewed court docs, and having followed many murder cases, a low-IQ murderer leaving no DNA wouldn't surprise me. And, a corrupt LE system facilitating a wrongful conviction wouldn't surprise me either.

Well, to say "leaving no DNA" isn't accurate. The victims DNA wasn't detected. Avery's DNA was all over the place, but oddly enough the victims wasn't. There was also DNA from an officer detected. Just no Theresa DNA was found anywhere.

[Blindgreed1]

And please... Feel free to comment ignorantly if you wish. When you've got it, flaunt it.

[Midwest Spy]

HotD, in BG's defense, the Avery's really are a bunch of bumpkins. You have to see them and hear them to realize how dumb they appear.

However, I believe, even after seeing and hearing Steven Avery, that he committed this crime.

This show was presented from the defense viewpoint, and everything we've seen is meant to create doubt as to Avery's guilt.

Are there many aspects that leave you shaking your head? Yes.

A very compelling documentary, no doubt.

[Blindgreed1]

http://www.brostrick.com/celebrity-news/...arb-avery/

[HairOfTheDog]

Why would you need to defend Gunnar, MS?

I'm not arguing with anyone's characterization of the Averys as bumpkins -- I've followed the case and seen them interviewed, and I've watched part of the series. I've already characterized them as unsophisticated and unintelligent myself. There's nothing for you to defend.

Anyway, one more time -- morons and bumpkins commit violent crimes at least as often as everyone else. They can also lie as effectively as everybody else.

The fact that Avery and clan are bumpkins, therefore, doesn't convince me that one or more of them could not be responsible for the death of Teresa Halsbach, as Gunnar inquired and insists. Difference of opinion.

Yes, so far, I've found the documentary compelling too.

[Midwest Spy]

http://www.brostrick.com/celebrity-news/...arb-avery/

I'm laughing here at work while reading the article and people are giving me weird looks.

They need to watch the damn show!

[HairOfTheDog]

And please... Feel free to comment ignorantly if you wish. When you've got it, flaunt it.

Newsflash Gunnar, members don't need your permission to post.

That's true whether they agree with you, or disagree with you, or don't have an opinion.

Please remember that this a crime forum discussion thread covering both the documentary and the case in general, as noted in my post to an0n upthread.

People who have followed the case and haven't seen the documentary are welcome to comment and reply, as are people who have seen the documentary without previously having followed the case.

P.s. you can stop flaunting it anytime; it's clear that you've got it in spades already.

[Blindgreed1]

And please... Feel free to comment ignorantly if you wish. When you've got it, flaunt it.

Newsflash Gunnar, members don't need your permission to post.

That's true whether they agree with you, or disagree with you, or don't have an opinion.

Please remember that this a crime forum discussion thread covering both the documentary and the case in general, as noted in my post to an0n upthread.

People who have followed the case and haven't seen the documentary are welcome to comment and reply, as are people who have seen the documentary without previously having followed the case.

P.s. you can stop flaunting it anytime; it's clear that you've got it in spades already.

Swing and a miss. Not only are you posting out of ignorance, you're posting up the dumb. You're blonde is showing HoTD.

[Donovan]

I must be one of only a handful of people who don't rave on that show. I watched four or five episodes with middling interest, but the whole thing struck me as an unnecessarily long episode of 48 hours. Too many people who love to hear themselves talk. So poor people get screwed by the system, and the law screws everybody. Not news, at least where I grew up.

[Blindgreed1]

And please... Feel free to comment ignorantly if you wish. When you've got it, flaunt it.

Newsflash Gunnar, members don't need your permission to post.

That's true whether they agree with you, or disagree with you, or don't have an opinion.

Please remember that this a crime forum discussion thread covering both the documentary and the case in general, as noted in my post to an0n upthread.

People who have followed the case and haven't seen the documentary are welcome to comment and reply, as are people who have seen the documentary without previously having followed the case.

P.s. you can stop flaunting it anytime; it's clear that you've got it in spades already.

Swing and a miss. Not only are you posting out of ignorance, you're posting up the dumb. You're blonde is showing HoTD.

She didn't take the bait.

[HairOfTheDog]

Swing and a miss. Not only are you posting out of ignorance, you're posting up the dumb. You're blonde is showing HoTD.

I'm deeply hurt.

My reminder stands. This thread is open to everyone who cares to comment on the case. It's not restricted to those who've watched any/all of the series.

And, there was no swing, Gunnar. You're imagining things again.

[HairOfTheDog]

Motion to Vacate Conviction Filed

Avery filed two motions Monday alleging violations of due process rights in his prosecution for the 2005 rape and murder of photographer Teresa Halbach, according to CNN affiliate WBAY.

The motion seeks a stay of enforcement of the judgment and release on bond. If the court decides to vacate Avery's conviction based on his claims, prosecutors would have to decide whether to retry him without the impermissible evidence.

Wisconsin prosecutors and law enforcement have accused the Making of a Murderer documentary directors of cherry-picking the evidence to cast it in a light favorable to Avery.

Prosecutors laid out their case: Halbach's Toyota RAV4 (which had blood in it, including Avery's) was found on the Avery family's lot. Tissue and bone fragments that matched Halbach's DNA profile were found outside Avery's mobile home. Avery's then-16-year-old nephew, Brendan Dassey, confessed to authorities that he had assisted his uncle in raping and killing her.

Full story: http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/entertainm...peal-feat/

[sharit]

Read the book Kiss the Girls. Brendens step Dad and older brother seem suspicious.

[HairOfTheDog]

Hi Sharit, I've read that book and understand Massey claimed on the stand that he fabricated his confession using details from it. It's hard for me to imagine him reading that book, but it's possible. I believe the part about cutting the girl's hair was only in the movie, not the book. But, it's possible he saw the movie too.

If I understand correctly,

-Gunnar finds the ex-boyfriend and the brother suspicious; the former due to the Teresa's deleted voice mails.

-MS thinks Avery and Massey did it, based on the evidence (including that which was left out of the series), but acknowledges the LE was corrupt.

-Some viewers suspect the LE actually killed Teresa and coerced Massey in order to frame Avery and get out of a multi-million dollar payout for Avery's previous wrongful rape conviction.

-Teresa's family and LE claim that the series is very one-sided, leaves out damning evidence against Avery, and shouldn't be called a 'documentary' because it's more of an advocacy piece for Avery designed to manipulate the viewer.

I haven't seen anyone mention Massey's stepdad and older brother before. What do you find suspicious about them?

P.s. it's good to see you; hope all's well with you and your family.

[Cutz]

To HoTeeDee: Simple minded, slow people are definitely able of committing crime and lying about it.

To MS: Cops didn't need to murder her. They needed to find her car on the side of the road (maybe 2 days before and you radio it in?), and then pull off a whole lot of evidence planting, including burning the body, planting the key, planting the car, planting the DNA, and setting up the ex bf to send searchers onto the property. Elaborate but not impossible. Did the other county have to be in on it? Certainly a lot of questions as to how far the conspiracy had to go. But not murder. And creepy guys are creepy to young women all the time. You'll find out why he'd call her in a few years when your wife leaves you and you're "that guy" at the bar trying to pick up girls half your age.

In general: I don't care if he murdered her or not. You don't get to circumvent laws and plant evidence on guilty people any more than innocent. The vial of his blood had cut security tape and a needle hole in the top. I think the police did that, and I'd throw out all evidence and let him walk. Even if I was certain he did it, I let him walk. Otherwise you're telling LE that it's open season on anything they want to do. This /is/ the same area where the guy was wrongfully convicted in the past.

[Blindgreed1]

To HoTeeDee: Simple minded, slow people are definitely able of committing crime and lying about it.

To MS: Cops didn't need to murder her. They needed to find her car on the side of the road (maybe 2 days before and you radio it in?), and then pull off a whole lot of evidence planting, including burning the body, planting the key, planting the car, planting the DNA, and setting up the ex bf to send searchers onto the property. Elaborate but not impossible. Did the other county have to be in on it? Certainly a lot of questions as to how far the conspiracy had to go. But not murder. And creepy guys are creepy to young women all the time. You'll find out why he'd call her in a few years when your wife leaves you and you're "that guy" at the bar trying to pick up girls half your age.

In general: I don't care if he murdered her or not. You don't get to circumvent laws and plant evidence on guilty people any more than innocent. The vial of his blood had cut security tape and a needle hole in the top. I think the police did that, and I'd throw out all evidence and let him walk. Even if I was certain he did it, I let him walk. Otherwise you're telling LE that it's open season on anything they want to do. This /is/ the same area where the guy was wrongfully convicted in the past.

*flaunts his ignorance* My sentiments exactly. There's no question LE tampered with the evidence in this case and coerced a confession from the slow kid. They picked the low hanging fruit.