Making a Murderer -- DID STEVEN AVERY REALLY KILL TERESA HALBACH?

[Blindgreed1]

It's neither really. I just don't ever read your incredibly long replies because 1) usually the meaningful content is but one or two sentences and 2) You really aren't an expert when it comes to anything but puns and picking the nit.

Your reply confirms that it's both, really.

1) Obviously, if you didn't read my incredibly long posts, you wouldn't be able to categorize what you consider meaningful or not.

2) And, you just restated what I already said -- I don't claim to be an expert, you just keep falsely claiming that I claim to be one. Plus, your definition of "picking the nit" appears to be pointing out that which is inconvenient for you.

I'm going to focus on the case in this thread, Gunnar. As always, I'll read all of the posts, long or short, by experts and novices -- it's all interesting to me. You're obviously free to skip posts that don't suit your fancy.

You can keep bullshitting and critiquing me and my posts instead; you'll have free rein to do so without further response from me.

TLDNR

[Blindgreed1]

Cutz, all of your points make some sense except for: A) the cops burning the body? So, they either brought her on to the Avery property and burned her while no one watched, or, you're suggesting, they burned her elsewhere and transported her remains back to Avery's? That's a tough one for me to buy.

I agree. It's both logistically and normatively questionable. If her body was in the car, it'd be easier to pin the framing case. It's hard to believe the cops burned her before, somehow while nobody was watching, or after, imaginably with tons of cops watching. Maybe burning her offsite and moving her? Then it's even harder to imagine they stuffed her body in a furnace somewhere, pulled out all the bones, and nobody sees it. Just gets more and more complicated, ya know. How'd they know he was having a bonfire if they did it before? Why go through the trouble if they could just plant her body on the premises? Very grey.

I don't think Avery is a great dude. Him killing the cat is disgusting. He's not the goofy, lovable guy that Netflix presents. But the cops look guilty as shit. Dirty cops don't get support. The fact that the FBI bent over backwards to try to prove them inculpable is appalling.

The lead investigators just look like garbage. Not necessarily in on any conspiracy, but the way they berated that kid is awful. How you pull a 16 year old out of school without parental consent escapes me. I have a friend who told me about cops doing a similar thing to her. There's great cops and there's really terrible people that become cops... just like any other profession I guess. In this case, it looks like the cops broke the law. I'd revoke the conviction.

Agree... Regardless of what you think about the guy as a person, it has to come down to how the case and the evidence was handled. ANYONE who feels as though HoTD's little "Justice System" worked in this case needs a full frontal lobotomy and two heaping servings of STFU.

[Blindgreed1]

For me, pleading guilty to stealing and to torturing a pet to death, after being witnessed and charged, doesn't make Avery an honest guy who would confess to murder for integrity's sake. Those undeniable criminal acts just show that he's dishonest and deeply cruel.

Pleading guilty to the burglary and animal cruelty would likely be advised under those conditions and result in a lighter sentence than going to trial and being found guilty. Pleading guilty served his self-interests.

Pleading guilty to a premeditated brutal murder he committed as an adult, where it's basically a life or death sentence only, would be a different story.

TLDNR

[Duchess]

Seriously?

[Blindgreed1]

Seriously?

Yup, it's "justice"

[HairOfTheDog]

Seriously?

To be taken even less seriously than that: Steven Avery's mother, Delores, is telling media that she doesn't think Teresa Halbach is really dead. http://www.people.com/article/steven-ave...ch-is-dead

I feel for Teresa's family. Even if you don't think her murderer(s) are behind bars, or you believe that one or both of the convictions was secured unlawfully, she was brutally murdered and her remains were burned; some intertwined with tire materials used to accelerate the fire. She is most certainly dead and her family is painfully aware of that fact every single day.

For the record, the U.S. has a criminal justice system, not just a legal system. That's what I've said and that's a fact. It's not my system, of course, it's our system -- much of which is called out in our Constitution. People in the U.S. have a right to remain silent. We have protections against unreasonable and unlawful search and seizures. We have a right not to testify and not to incriminate ourselves. We have due process guarantees. We have a right to a jury of our peers, etc... Those rights and guarantees are not in place everywhere in the world.

There's no doubt that the U.S. criminal justice system doesn't always render just results, for many reasons. As I've stated countless times in several threads, I think it needs reform and I understand those who are protesting to that end. I'm glad to see at least parts of it being reformed now, with bi-partisan governmental effort.

I don't try to defend law enforcement officers, attorneys, judges or correction officers in the U.S. criminal justice system who willfully violate people's/suspects' rights or who are otherwise corrupt in their duties; not in this case nor any other. They weaken our system, harm our citizens, and should be held accountable. None of which, however, magically transforms known criminals into choir boys when they get screwed over by corrupt players in the system.

[Duchess]

Well, I like your posts, particularly in the crime forum because I know I can count on them to be factual and I know when you claim something you backup that claim with proof.

I enjoy your posts outside of the crime forum as well. You have a way with words that I find very amusing. You're very smart and quite funny. What's not to like.

I am not kissing your ass, sucking up, nor buttering your biscuit (not that I wouldn't like to)

[HairOfTheDog]

C'mon, just admit it. You're trying to butter my biscuit, Duchess! : )

I post what I think, how I think it. Nobody's required to read what I or anyone else posts; seems kinda silly to even have to reiterate that.

Anyway, being challenged in serious discussion when there's a difference of opinion is something I like about Mock. Watching someone habitually throw out challenges to opinions that were never even expressed is dull though. It makes me kinda miss sharper trolls, for a minute.

Sometimes I wonder what Sonny's up to these days.

[Duchess]

Sometimes I wonder what Sonny's up to these days.

He was so much fun to fuck with. His woman too. She came into Mock and called me out.

[HairOfTheDog]

There was a night a few years ago when I was pretty wasted and posting. Sonny and Dick were going all "Castle Doctrine" on me and user, who was probably high as a kite herself. I laughed for a good hour going back and forth with those guys, point by point. They were nuts, but truly hilarious to me.

[Blindgreed1]

Seriously?

To be taken even less seriously than that: Steven Avery's mother, Delores, is telling media that she doesn't think Teresa Halbach is really dead. http://www.people.com/article/steven-ave...ch-is-dead

I feel for Teresa's family. Even if you don't think her murderer(s) are behind bars, or you believe that one or both of the convictions was secured unlawfully, she was brutally murdered and her remains were burned; some intertwined with tire materials used to accelerate the fire. She is most certainly dead and her family is painfully aware of that fact every single day.

For the record, the U.S. has a criminal justice system, not just a legal system. That's what I've said and that's a fact. It's not my system, of course, it's our system -- much of which is called out in our Constitution. People in the U.S. have a right to remain silent. We have protections against unreasonable and unlawful search and seizures. We have a right not to testify and not to incriminate ourselves. We have due process guarantees. We have a right to a jury of our peers, etc... Those rights and guarantees are not in place everywhere in the world.

There's no doubt that the U.S. criminal justice system doesn't always render just results, for many reasons. As I've stated countless times in several threads, I think it needs reform and I understand those who are protesting to that end. I'm glad to see at least parts of it being reformed now, with bi-partisan governmental effort.

I don't try to defend law enforcement officers, attorneys, judges or correction officers in the U.S. criminal justice system who willfully violate people's/suspects' rights or who are otherwise corrupt in their duties; not in this case nor any other. They weaken our system, harm our citizens, and should be held accountable. None of which, however, magically transforms known criminals into choir boys when they get screwed over by corrupt players in the system.

The superior court judge (Kyle Bryson, because you love sources cited so much) that laid it all out for me in a casual conversation disagrees with you HoTD, and while I know you are an expert having read up on a few crimes, I'd like to think he has more experience and knowledge about the subject than you do, so once again we will agree to disagree.

[HairOfTheDog]

Well, I had a threesome with Judge Wopner and Judge Judy night before last and they laid it all out for me.

After which, we discussed the U.S. criminal justice system in the bubble bath.

Wop said that denying the existence of a system which has been in place, warts and all, for so long is delusional. And, then Judy laughed about how her friend Judge Kyle B likes to tell gullible people that it's an illusion, just for kicks. Effin' Kyle, he's a character alright.

[sharit]

This former police sergeant thinks he knows who killed Teresa Halbach
Jen Juneau / January 21, 2016 10:59 am


Whether you believe Steven Avery and his nephew Brendan Dassey were the individuals responsible for murdering Teresa Halbach, the fact remains that the details surrounding the Making a Murderer case are still a bit murky. Some of the (many, many) questions we’re still asking are, “Does defense attorney Dean Strang have real doubts of Avery’s innocence now?” and “If he was the culprit, why would Avery leave a single key in his home when Halbach carried a whole key ring?” And now, another wrench is being thrown into this mix.

An FBI cold case task force worker and former police sergeant named John Cameron believes a prolific serial killer named Edward Wayne Edwards might actually be the one responsible for Halbach’s murder.



Cameron states that Edwards, who died of natural causes in 2011, was officially convicted for five deaths that took place from 1977 to 1996. He also believes Edwards could also be responsible for big unsolved cases like the death of JonBenét Ramsey and the Zodiac Killer murders.

Cameron’s basis for accusation on Edwards’ part consists of a myriad of facts that may connect him to Halbach’s murder. For example, many of Edwards’ victims were killed on Halloween, just like Halbach. Edwards was living about an hour from Avery during the timeframe of Halbach’s murder, and he’d also committed murder in Wisconsin in the past (1980). Kathleen Zellner, Avery’s current lawyer as of just this month, was responsible for helping free another man who was accused of a murder Cameron says Edwards is responsible for – a murder that also took place Halloween night.

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[sharit]

Oh, and apparently, Edwards has also made appearances at funerals and trials of his past victims. Seemingly unrelated to the Halbach case…or is it? In episode six of Making a Murderer, a man who looks similar to Edwards looms in the background of a scene.



No one, including Cameron, has identified the mystery man as of now, so of course the Internet is buzzing with theories about Edwards. The plot thickens, indeed.

While hard evidence to convict the late Edwards is still definitely lacking, it’s difficult not to let our thoughts wander in this direction, as Cameron makes some good points on what could tie him to the murder of Teresa Halbach – and, in turn, potentially exonerate both Avery and Dassey.

Watch the entire video exploring the “Ed Edwards killed Teresa Halbach” theory below, and join us in being even more unsure about what actually happened to Halbach.



(Images via Netflix and Montana Correctional Institute/YouTube)

PREVIOUS PAGE Interesting video on Youtube. Making a murder , Ed Edwards theory.

[Cutz]

I hate Judge Judy.

[HairOfTheDog]

I hate Judge Judy.

She's not my favorite either. But, unfortunately, Judge Ito was busy this week.

[Blindgreed1]

Well, I had a threesome with Judge Wopner and Judge Judy night before last and they laid it all out for me.

After which, we discussed the U.S. criminal justice system in the bubble bath.

Wop said that denying the existence of a system which has been in place, warts and all, for so long is delusional. And, then Judy laughed about how her friend Judge Kyle B likes to tell gullible people that it's an illusion, just for kicks. Effin' Kyle, he's a character alright.

Kyle says you can call it a spoon full of sugar if it floats your boat, but those who live in the real world and actually earn a living off the legal system understand that it's just that. A legal system.

[HairOfTheDog]

I like Dan Abrams; I think he does a good job sharing his legal knowledge and applying it to specific cases. He rarely gives opinions on guilt or innocence in his role as a network analyst, but is doing so at his new website. http://lawnewz.com/category/high-profile/

I agree with Abram's take on the Teresa Halbach murder case, for the most part, including his belief that Brendan Dassey should get a new trial.


Abrams ^ says he believes that Steven Avery is guilty of the murder of Teresa Halbach and that his nephew, Brendan Dassey, is innocent.

In laying out the case for Avery's guilt, Abrams offers his take on the puncture hole in the vial containing Avery's blood, a sign the evidence had been tampered with and Avery had been framed, according to the case presented by his defense team, Dean Strang and Jerry Buting.

"It is hard not to moved by that moment," Abrams says. "That is, unless you know that those sorts of punctures are at least somewhat common...Well, that sure changes things but the filmmakers either didn't know that or just didn't care to share it with the audience."

Abrams also points to the fact there is actual evidence against Avery, including Halbach's remains, which were discovered in his fire pit. "Could someone invent seemingly plausible narratives about how or why some other suspect might have committed the crime?" writes Abrams. "Surely. But that does not mean we can or should ignore the actual (as opposed to figmental) evidence against Steven Avery."

He adds: "I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Steven Avery killed Teresa and that he received a flawed but overall fair trial."

Dassey is the real victim in Making a Murderer, according to Abrams. "The interrogation tapes tell the story," he writes. "It seems obvious that he was 'guessing' on what investigators wanted to hear just as he asserted to his mother.

Abrams adds: "The authorities suggest that he provided details only the killer would know and that had not been disclosed publicly about the crime. Well, maybe they hadn't been disclosed or learned because they never actually happened."

"So my opinion: Avery is guilty, Dassey not. If true, that would mean Steven Avery has taken not just one life, but two. By maintaining his innocence and refusing to admit his involvement, it precludes him from credibly clearing his nephew."

Abrams hopes that the series at least gets Dassey a new trial, adding, "Dassey's confession and conviction is, and are, an injustice."

http://www.people.com/article/steven-ave...brams-says

[Midwest Spy]

Having watched the series, I'd feel uncomfortable clearing Dassey.

I know he comes across as unintelligent, however, to me, he doesn't protest enough for someone, a 16-17 year old in particular, that is about to be locked up for 40+ years.

I'm referring to the taped calls between Dassey and his mother, and there are several recorded while he's being held awaiting trial.

Why isn't he yelling, sobbing etc., into the phone to his mother? She's the one person on the planet who he'd believe could help him, right? But the conversations are ho-hum, with no emotion. Half the time is spent with her questioning how the hell he 'made up' the story he told investigators.

In my opinion, he was at least present during the commission of the crime and his guilt eats at him.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yeah, I'm not convinced that he wasn't involved either MS. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

But, I think the methods used by interrogators were coercive, and that's evident (in my opinion) on the tapes. It's not just speculation.

So, I'd like to see him get a fair trial with that old confession tossed.