Making a Murderer -- DID STEVEN AVERY REALLY KILL TERESA HALBACH?

[Duchess]

I know he comes across as unintelligent

Is he "slow", does he come across as diminished capacity? I ask because sometimes they are emotionless in general.

[HairOfTheDog]

You can see/hear Brendan Dassey in this interrogation tape.

[Midwest Spy]

I know he comes across as unintelligent

Is he "slow", does he come across as diminished capacity? I ask because sometimes they are emotionless in general.

Yes, he appears slow, but that's what the filmmakers have chosen to show.

I haven't done this, but apparently there's a way to watch his entire confession, and it paints a different picture of Dassey.

He apparently answers questions not relating to the murder quickly and easily, and then when specifics are brought up and his involvement is questioned, he slows way down and struggles (the part we see in the doc).

Edit: I see HotD has posted it. I'll have to see for myself.

[Midwest Spy]

Just read the transcript from Brendan Dassey's interview on 2-27-06 with the Calumet County Sherriff's Dept.

I'm sure reading it and watching it could be considered different, but the detail that Dassey provides concerning the night of Oct 31^st at Avery's fire pit, sure seems damning to Avery.

[LytoMe]

I have BEEN waiting so LONG for a good thread to come back too!!

So HOTD have you finished the entire series now? Reason I am asking, Skimming through the comments seems your opinions have changed a little. And that would make sense if you watched the entire series.

I was one of the Bingers that watched it in 2 days, being in this field of law it was interesting to watch it all unfold.

My opinions are this of the Avery Case. Do I think he is guilty of Murder? NO. There is way to much reasonable doubt to believe he is innocent rather then guilty.

SEVERAL things stand out to me:

The recorded auto look up of her tag 2 days before they found her car. And the fact that when the car was ACTUALLY found on the property the plates were no where on the car. Where did they go in 2 days?

This property was family owned, with SEVERAL family members living on the property. So why would they AUTOMATICALLY think that Steven Avery did it and NOT anyone else on the property. The lack of investigation into anyone else and the recorded statement "is he in custody" right as the car was found, very suspicious.

Also the brother and the ex boyfriend testified that they were NOT asked for an alibi or investigated. On the stand they stated this, why was this not done? When a person is missing interviewing the family and especially the ex boyfriend is always done! The brother was to cocky for me to even feel bad for him, he did not seem to be genuine at all to me.

The lack of blood evidence from Teresa is HUGE for me, they can NOT physically put her in the house or the garage. That is hard for me to not consider.

I believe there is a lot of evidence that would point to either a NOT guilty or reasonable doubt. The fact that he was found guilty is actually shocking with the evidence that they had seen and heard.

ONE last thing to this ridiculously long thread, I will never understand how a JUDGE would allow this case to be heard in the SAME COUNTY/CITY that he had an outstanding lawsuit. PREJUDICE right off the bat! Change of Venue should have been the FIRST thing to do. He did not stand a chance to have an impartial jury.

Now lets hear everyone else's opinions on my opinions. I could literally go on about this case!!

[Duchess]

I have BEEN waiting so LONG for a good thread to come back too!!

I'm crushed that you don't think our CHILI - BEANS OR NO BEANS or FRIDAY BOOBIES are good threads.

[LytoMe]

I have BEEN waiting so LONG for a good thread to come back too!!

I'm crushed that you don't think our CHILI - BEANS OR NO BEANS or FRIDAY BOOBIES are good threads.

Bahaha I have been reading....my wording was actually inaccurate. I have not been passionate about any other thread recently until now.

[Blindgreed1]

I have BEEN waiting so LONG for a good thread to come back too!!

So HOTD have you finished the entire series now? Reason I am asking, Skimming through the comments seems your opinions have changed a little. And that would make sense if you watched the entire series.

I was one of the Bingers that watched it in 2 days, being in this field of law it was interesting to watch it all unfold.

My opinions are this of the Avery Case. Do I think he is guilty of Murder? NO. There is way to much reasonable doubt to believe he is innocent rather then guilty.

SEVERAL things stand out to me:

The recorded auto look up of her tag 2 days before they found her car. And the fact that when the car was ACTUALLY found on the property the plates were no where on the car. Where did they go in 2 days?

This property was family owned, with SEVERAL family members living on the property. So why would they AUTOMATICALLY think that Steven Avery did it and NOT anyone else on the property. The lack of investigation into anyone else and the recorded statement "is he in custody" right as the car was found, very suspicious.

Also the brother and the ex boyfriend testified that they were NOT asked for an alibi or investigated. On the stand they stated this, why was this not done? When a person is missing interviewing the family and especially the ex boyfriend is always done! The brother was to cocky for me to even feel bad for him, he did not seem to be genuine at all to me.

The lack of blood evidence from Teresa is HUGE for me, they can NOT physically put her in the house or the garage. That is hard for me to not consider.

I believe there is a lot of evidence that would point to either a NOT guilty or reasonable doubt. The fact that he was found guilty is actually shocking with the evidence that they had seen and heard.

ONE last thing to this ridiculously long thread, I will never understand how a JUDGE would allow this case to be heard in the SAME COUNTY/CITY that he had an outstanding lawsuit. PREJUDICE right off the bat! Change of Venue should have been the FIRST thing to do. He did not stand a chance to have an impartial jury.

Now lets hear everyone else's opinions on my opinions. I could literally go on about this case!!

These were the things that really stuck out to me as well. It's murder investigation 101, but in this case they didn't really need to investigate anything. They just needed to find a way to form the case around Avery.

[Duchess]

Bahaha

[blueberryhill]

I probably shouldn't comment as I only saw the Dateline segment on this case which is very complicated.

What I noticed from the git go, is the attorney Avery has working for him. I have seen her involved in the Innocence Project, and will go to bat for people who she thinks are convicted without sufficient evidence. I respect her and think she wouldn't be supporting him without good cause.

To me, some of the evidence on Avery's property looked like it had been hidden by some grade school kid. A bunch of twigs on Teresa's car, and other possible evidence which was planted by a dumbass....so obvious and you think, golly, Avery couldn't be that stupid as to leave all that evidence on his own property.....and then there are all the others who live on or come and go on the property so it makes you think he is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.....but surprised that LE didn't interview them, etc.

But, then, who killed Teresa? and why? I admittedly didn't see enough of the documentaries out there re this case, but if someone has some kind of theory on this, I would like to hear it....She certainly wasn't killed and allegedly burned on his property by someone just wanting to frame him, was she?

[LytoMe]

I probably shouldn't comment as I only saw.....

Watching the documentary would definitely give you a little more insight. You are right that the "hiding" of her vehicle in plan sight was more like hide and seek when I was 12.

As to killing her there could be so many suspects other then Avery himself. That day the 2 Dassey Boys, Avery's Brother, Brother in Law were on the property at some point. Then there is the Ex Boyfriend we have NO idea what type of relationship they had, and the brother. We have no idea why type of relationship. If and when you watch the documentary pay attention to her OWN words at sentencing. Teresa's own words in the video they played. She talks about who she loves...her parents, sisters, family. Not once was this brother mentioned. And they said this was the last video of her and fairly recent.

Honestly the one person that I would have loved to hear from is her roommate at the time. I am sure he holds a lot of key information that he may not know was important at the time.

Also about the *67 calls, in my opinion they are irrelevant to a murder case. Or indicates someone's wants to harm another. Now opening and deleting voice mails and EMAILED from a computer or phone. That's a little more milioucous and tends to point to someone that is trying to cover up a trail. Just saying...lol

[HairOfTheDog]

So HOTD have you finished the entire series now? Reason I am asking, Skimming through the comments seems your opinions have changed a little. And that would make sense if you watched the entire series.

I did watch it all, LytoMe. I like to binge watch too, but haven't been able to do any of that in recent months. So, I watched it in increments.

Anyway, I still believe that LE probably got the right guy in Avery. I don't lean one way or the other on Dassey. However, those are nothing more than my opinions, and they're not firm ones at that.

I believe that Dassey's confession was gotten using leading and coercive tactics. It should be tossed. And, I think it's likely Teresa's car key was planted in Avery's room. But even if it wasn't, I don't think the two cops who worked the rape case against him should have been anywhere near his home or involved in the Halbach murder investigation.

Steven Avery would have been at the top of my suspect list regardless of his previous proven criminal history (which excludes the wrongful rape conviction) or the fact that he burned a cat alive (which I would not have heard as a juror in the murder trial anyway).

Teresa was never heard from again after heading to Avery's place of business and some of her belongings and her remains were found on his property (I don't think it's reasonable to believe that all of that was planted, but that's just my opinion). And, Avery called Teresa's phone twice the day she disappeared. He's a solid suspect, in my view. Plus, like Midwest Spy, it wouldn't shock me if Avery was bitter about spending years in prison for a crime he didn't commit and decided he was entitled to act on some rape/kill fantasy.

None of which proves beyond reasonable doubt that Avery and Dassey murdered Teresa if one believes that some/all of the evidence against them was tainted. And, I believe some of the evidence may well have been tainted.

So, as I said previously, I wouldn't want to see either of the two men released based on what was presented in the Netflix series alone, nor the fact that they're not mental giants. Plenty of violent criminals are less than intelligent and they can lie like everyone else. I would, however, like to see them get new trials where the unreliable or highly questionable evidence from their first trials is tossed. If those new trials were held in different venues, that would be fine. If anyone can find new evidence to make that happen despite the men's appeals having been exhausted, it's Kathleen Zellner. I hope she succeeds on that front.

[Midwest Spy]

The bus driver that dropped Brendan Dassey off that day after school definitely witnessed Teresa's car in front of Avery's residence.

That's the last indisputable piece of evidence which everyone agrees to.

[LytoMe]

So HOTD have you finished the entire series now? Reason I am asking, Skimming through the comments seems your opinions have changed a little. And that would make sense if you watched the entire series.

Steven Avery would have been at the top of my suspect list regardless of his previous proven criminal history (which excludes the wrongful rape conviction) or the fact that he burned a cat alive (which I would not have heard as a juror in the murder trial anyway).

Teresa was never heard from again after heading to Avery's place of business and some of her belongings and her remains were found on his property (I don't think it's reasonable to believe that all of that was planted, but that's just my opinion).

Just 2 things stand out to me on your post, you say he was on the top of your list as suspects, why? The reason I am asking this is because of several things, their were several other men on the property during the time she was missing. It could have been anyone of them, we don't know their backgrounds so its hard to say if they are violent criminals or not. No one else was investigated to the length of putting someone else at fault. The boyfriend and brother for instance, we don't know if the boyfriend and Teresa had a bad relationship that was never said. But the fact that he went into her phone and email to actually delete information. That is suspicious to me, honestly. And they could have been looked into at least investigated or given a statement.

In an interview of a delivering man during the investigation, he stated that he passed Teresa leaving Avery's. This is another piece of evidence that has come forward. I believe there has been new evidence or I don't think any attorney would take this case on. It would be an embarrassment to them.

I do believe that evidence was planted, the fact that investigators were on the property from a different venue did not find a single piece of evidence against Avery. BUT then when local investigators that knew of Avery and previously worked on his case showed up, all of a sudden there was evidence against him. They not only are stating these investigators were incompetent to find Clear evidence, but missed important details.
I just find it so hard to believe that this man did this crime, and was able to clean up so much after himself without a trace of clear evidence of a murder.

[LytoMe]

The bus driver that dropped Brendan Dassey off that day after school definitely witnessed Teresa's car in front of Avery's residence.

That's the last indisputable piece of evidence which everyone agrees to.

And then it is stated that a delivery man saw her leaving the property. So more then one person saw her there, and leave the property.

Its a tough pill for me to swallow that NO ONE heard or saw something out of the ordinary this day. The sister was home and people were on the property when this elaborate murder took place. I mean in all seriousness IF he did in fact kill her and kill her on the property, I honestly think there would be clear cut evidence on the property this happened. NOT evidence that clearly screams that it was planted.

If someone can tell me something MORE then a telephone call to lead them to believe that he was the murderer, I am all for it.

HOTD I get that has priors, and I get that he made telephone calls to her phone. What other evidence puts her at the house being killed? Your Thoughts?

[Midwest Spy]

LytoMe, if you get a chance read the transcript of Dassey's confession from ²⁄₂₈ or ³⁄₁ of 2006.

It's long, and was conducted at the police station after his interview at the school.

Read that and tell me you think he lied about all the details.

I don't think he was coerced or made the story up.

Which is why I'm sure the film's producers chose not to include any of it in the program.

[HairOfTheDog]

And then it is stated that a delivery man saw her leaving the property. So more then one person saw her there, and leave the property.

Its a tough pill for me to swallow that NO ONE heard or saw something out of the ordinary this day. The sister was home and people were on the property when this elaborate murder took place. I mean in all seriousness IF he did in fact kill her and kill her on the property, I honestly think there would be clear cut evidence on the property this happened. NOT evidence that clearly screams that it was planted.

If someone can tell me something MORE then a telephone call to lead them to believe that he was the murderer, I am all for it.

HOTD I get that has priors, and I get that he made telephone calls to her phone. What other evidence puts her at the house being killed? Your Thoughts?

The fact that Teresa was going to the Avery property to photograph a vehicle that Steven Avery was selling on behalf of his sister, the fact that he called her that day, the fact that she was not seen nor heard from after that, the fact that her belongings and her remains were found on his property, etc.. That's a lot of circumstantial evidence to make Steven Avery a prime suspect in my book, even disregarding Dassey's confession.

And, I don't believe that all of the physical evidence screams of being planted nor that the lack of some types of physical evidence on the property means that the murder had to be committed somewhere else. We just see it differently, LytoMe. It's less logical to me to assume that nobody saw police or a non-relative abducting Teresa elsewhere, transporting and planting her car, burning and planting her remains...than it is to believe that Teresa Halbach died on the Avery salvage yard property.

The Averys and company are not bright people, in my opinion, and you can't have it both ways. "He was too dumb to murder her and get away with it". Well, if he did murder her, he didn't get away with it. "He's too smart to have neglected some obvious evidence or not found a way to get rid of it in time, so it all must have been staged to frame him." Smarter people than Steven Avery have been convicted of crimes they committed based on a trail of physical and circumstantial evidence.

If one assumes that Avery is innocent, it makes more sense to me that somebody else with close connections to the Avery property murdered Teresa there (then cleaned up some evidence and overlooked other evidence) than it does to assume that the car and Teresa's burnt remains were transported and planted on the Avery property.

Based on what I know of the case from documents and the Netflix series, I think Avery and Dassey were dealing with a few corrupt individuals in the system and therefore deserve new trials. I am not convinced that Avery and Dassey are innocent and were framed for the murder of Teresa, however. I don't insist that they're guilty of it either. I don't know.

I'm sure Kathleen Zellner's team is re-interviewing witnesses, reviewing the physical evidence, and looking for potential alternate suspects. If she can make a strong case that incriminating circumstantial or other evidence against one or more other individuals was ignored or have new testing done that physically ties them to the murder, I'll be anxious to hear it and open minded in considering it.

[LytoMe]

LytoMe, if you get a chance read the transcript of Dassey's confession from ²⁄₂₈ or ³⁄₁ of 2006.

It's long, and was conducted at the police station after his interview at the school.

Read that and tell me you think he lied about all the details.

I don't think he was coerced or made the story up.

Which is why I'm sure the film's producers chose not to include any of it in the program.

I just pulled up the February 2006 transcript, that was more interesting of a read then the March 2006 one.

This interview gave more of a consistent with some of the evidence, I will agree with you on that one. And it does paint a totally different picture as to how the murder was carried out, and what exactly happened.

In saying this, I still think that a new trial should still be granted. Guilty or Not Guilty with the way it was handled I believe it was very unfair of a Judge to allow it to go down the way it did. If he is in fact guilty he will be found guilty again.

And I do understand that this documentary is solely for the defense, I do get that they show what they want you to see. Editing, filming what they want you to see and not filming what they don't want you to know. I am not naive to that, I just feel with what was presented a new trial should be granted.

[Blindgreed1]

And then it is stated that a delivery man saw her leaving the property. So more then one person saw her there, and leave the property.

Its a tough pill for me to swallow that NO ONE heard or saw something out of the ordinary this day. The sister was home and people were on the property when this elaborate murder took place. I mean in all seriousness IF he did in fact kill her and kill her on the property, I honestly think there would be clear cut evidence on the property this happened. NOT evidence that clearly screams that it was planted.

If someone can tell me something MORE then a telephone call to lead them to believe that he was the murderer, I am all for it.

HOTD I get that has priors, and I get that he made telephone calls to her phone. What other evidence puts her at the house being killed? Your Thoughts?

The fact that Teresa was going to the Avery property to photograph a vehicle that Steven Avery was selling on behalf of his sister, the fact that he called her that day, the fact that she was not seen nor heard from after that, the fact that her belongings and her remains were found on his property, etc.. That's a lot of circumstantial evidence to make Steven Avery a prime suspect in my book, even disregarding Dassey's confession.

And, I don't believe that all of the physical evidence screams of being planted nor that the lack of some types of physical evidence on the property means that the murder had to be committed somewhere else. We just see it differently, LytoMe. It's less logical to me to assume that nobody saw police or a non-relative abducting Teresa elsewhere, transporting and planting her car, burning and planting her remains...than it is to believe that Teresa Halbach died on the Avery salvage yard property.

The Averys and company are not bright people, in my opinion, and you can't have it both ways. "He was too dumb to murder her and get away with it". Well, if he did murder her, he didn't get away with it. "He's too smart to have neglected some obvious evidence or not found a way to get rid of it in time, so it all must have been staged to frame him." Smarter people than Steven Avery have been convicted of crimes they committed based on a trail of physical and circumstantial evidence.

If one assumes that Avery is innocent, it makes more sense to me that somebody else with close connections to the Avery property murdered Teresa there (then cleaned up some evidence and overlooked other evidence) than it does to assume that the car and Teresa's burnt remains were transported and planted on the Avery property.

Based on what I know of the case from documents and the Netflix series, I think Avery and Dassey were dealing with a few corrupt individuals in the system and therefore deserve new trials. I am not convinced that Avery and Dassey are innocent and were framed for the murder of Teresa, however. I don't insist that they're guilty of it either. I don't know.

I'm sure Kathleen Zellner's team is re-interviewing witnesses, reviewing the physical evidence, and looking for potential alternate suspects. If she can make a strong case that incriminating circumstantial or other evidence against one or more other individuals was ignored or have new testing done that physically ties them to the murder, I'll be anxious to hear it and open minded in considering it.

Specifically, the lack of DNA and blood evidence is what i'm having an issue with. That shit get's everywhere. No traces of her blood or DNA were found in the places LE says the crime was committed. Her DNA wasn't on her own key to her car. The projectile that supposedly passed through her head... None of her DNA. Not a trace. Anywhere...

[LytoMe]

I agree with you on this one, I would read the transcript from the February interview of Dassey. It was a VERY interesting find honestly. I have not read anything with the things he stated until today. Like of HOW she could have possibly have been killed, and WHY her blood was in her car.

Her DNA should have been SOMEWHERE, especially since we know for a FACT she was there to take pictures. SO why could they not have found something just on that basis.

And the lack of investigation into ANYONE else on the property or related to Teresa. That boggles my mind.