THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY

[blueberryhill]

This started with Duchess incredulous that VP Pence would be at an anti-abortion get together.

I could hardly believe my eyes. I had heard about it but I didn't believe he would actually do it!

I just heard the Pro-Life movement (holding today's rally) was told to stay away from all the women's marches last week.

Edit: March For Life (official title).

Well, maybe u shouldn't believe everything u "hear." I wasn't debating the issue of abortion in my comment. I was stating the inappropriateness of Church and State in bed with each other.
Do u not understand the difference?
It would not be appropriate for the President, Vice-President, etc. to be speaker at any event which is based on a person's religious beliefs.

[F.U.]

Why is the pro-life/choice issue a religious issue? Isn't it just a personal opinion/belief issue? I am not religious but I am pro life. Religion has nothing to do with my decision.

[blueberryhill]

Is there a law against it? Seriously, is there?

Not that I'm aware of.

You're okay with this?

If it saves some babies, then I'm fine with it.

I feel that if we improved our gun control laws, it would save some babies, teens, adults, etc, too......so are you pro-life or only until child is born.....then want to defund programs who help prevent pregnancies, feed, clothe, and provide medical care for these children...why stop caring once they are born? You, who are pro-life need to think beyond the birth of a child. You don't want to pay more taxes for schools...it appears to me that many who claim to be pro-life don't support programs which would benefit children.....their main goal is for the child to be born...period......that makes no sense to me....

[Duchess]

If it saves some babies, then I'm fine with it.

Another woman's baby/body is not your business.

I cringe to think of ever being so presumptuous as to tell anyone what to do with their life in that fashion. It's an amazing amount of audacity to even consider doing so.

[blueberryhill]

Why is the pro-life/choice issue a religious issue? Isn't it just a personal opinion/belief issue? I am not religious but I am pro life. Religion has nothing to do with my decision.

It has been made a religious by the extreme right wing evangelist zealots.....and not appropriate for the President or Vice President to be a part of either "side." Right now it is legal in the USA.....Go to another thread to debate your beliefs, etc....this thread is the "Trump Presidency" and as such, should not get in the mix.. Is that too difficult to comprehend? I know I have interjected my beliefs on this thread, but trying to get some of you people to stay focused on the issue of Gov't and Church is a waste of time. Your personal beliefs are not the issue in this particular comment which Duchess first commented that she couldn't believe Pence was speaker at the pro-life march......Vice President was totally inappropriate and the fact that some of you don't get this, validates my point that some of you are just obtuse.

[F.U.]

You actually expect a thread in this forum to stay on topic ? Quit drinking your bath water !

[Midwest Spy]

Why is the pro-life/choice issue a religious issue? Isn't it just a personal opinion/belief issue? I am not religious but I am pro life. Religion has nothing to do with my decision.

It has been made a religious by the extreme right wing evangelist zealots.....and not appropriate for the President or Vice President to be a part of either "side." Right now it is legal in the USA.....Go to another thread to debate your beliefs, etc....this thread is the "Trump Presidency" and as such, should not get in the mix.. Is that too difficult to comprehend? I know I have interjected my beliefs on this thread, but trying to get some of you people to stay focused on the issue of Gov't and Church is a waste of time. Your personal beliefs are not the issue in this particular comment which Duchess first commented that she couldn't believe Pence was speaker at the pro-life march......Vice President was totally inappropriate and the fact that some of you don't get this, validates my point that some of you are just obtuse.

Right Wing Evangelical Zealots...

Where does your disdain for Christianity come from?

I hope you're alive long enough to experience Sharia Law in this country.

Then tell me which is worse.

Oh wait... you're head will have been lopped off, so you won't be able to speak anymore.

Still, I nelieve it will be a tough choice for you.

As for the question at hand, I don't have a problem with Pence speaking at a March For Life rally.

[Maggot]

I may have to do a little research to see if Biden has ever gone to an event that was as volatile. To see what precedents had been set before. Just to keep it bi-partisan.

[blueberryhill]

You actually expect a thread in this forum to stay on topic ? Quit drinking your bath water !

Oh, I go off topic all the time....I was being my usual smart ass, self righteous self....I know none of you can stay on topic.....I even talked about my new puppy on this thread (and my deceased computer)
and for your info, buster, I take showers, not baths.....
but....I stand by saying that some of you (if the shoe fits) are obtuse....

[F.U.]

New PUPPY !?!?!. Now ya went and made me want to actually read this thread.

[blueberryhill]

And MWS, you used to make some sense, but less so these days......I can laugh at myself, but you have become this savior of all and we better think like you or else.....are u serious? I was flabbergasted when u wrote of your support for Trump but I now see why it is a good fit for you. Disdain for Christianity because of extreme religious fanatics who interpret the Bible literally. I suppose you are a fan of Franklin Graham....If you want to call these people examples of being a Christian, that is your choice, not mine. When you discriminate against certain groups and talk hate against them, then I no longer support their "Christian" beliefs. When I went to Sunday School, I learned the song, "Jesus Loves Me." There is nothing in there about only loving certain people....God/Jesus loves all of his children so I don't know what gives you the audacity to say I have disdain for Christians....I do, but only for the bible thumping, hateful zealots who preach hate and want to shove their hypocritical beliefs down my throat....
You can be as religious as you want but you do not have the right or the authority to judge others IMO....and it still stands....Religion has no place in politics... Got it?

[Duchess]

I hope you're alive long enough to experience Sharia Law in this country.

Then tell me which is worse.

Oh wait... you're head will have been lopped off, so you won't be able to speak anymore.

C'mon, MS. Sharia Law? In the United States of America? What is going on in the middle of the country that so many people have thoughts similar to yours? That's a serious question. I have never heard anyone on the East Coast express concern about something like that, never.

[sally]

Why is the pro-life/choice issue a religious issue? Isn't it just a personal opinion/belief issue? I am not religious but I am pro life. Religion has nothing to do with my decision.

It has been made a religious by the extreme right wing evangelist zealots.....and not appropriate for the President or Vice President to be a part of either "side." Right now it is legal in the USA.....Go to another thread to debate your beliefs, etc....this thread is the "Trump Presidency" and as such, should not get in the mix.. Is that too difficult to comprehend? I know I have interjected my beliefs on this thread, but trying to get some of you people to stay focused on the issue of Gov't and Church is a waste of time. Your personal beliefs are not the issue in this particular comment which Duchess first commented that she couldn't believe Pence was speaker at the pro-life march......Vice President was totally inappropriate and the fact that some of you don't get this, validates my point that some of you are just obtuse.

You can have morality with the absence of religion and church, BB. Morality isn't a personal opinion or belief, it's just knowing right from wrong. Obviously it's wrong to murder someone unless it's in self defense, right? When the murderer is punished no one questions it being a religious issue.

On the other hand religion is often pushed as morally right, as with homosexuals. Homosexuals aren't hurting anyone though so that's a religious belief and doesn't have anything to do with morality.

But abortion, well just how right do you think that is BB? When you have an abortion you are taking a life aren't you? That's not a belief, it's a fact. So to me it's much more than the government trying to tell women what to do with their bodies based on religion. Its much bigger than that.

Abortion may be necessary in the world we live in, but that doesn't mean it's morally right.

[Midwest Spy]

BBH, I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, but, when someone is as disdainful toward something I believe in, I want to figure out why.

I'm on your side when it comes to televangelists, fire & brimstone preaching, etc.

The Christianity I'm part of really does preach Jesus' love of everyone. Tolerance toward all.

My church has a Muslim outreach program.

It's pretty amazing.

Anyway, not trying to tell you what to believe in AT ALL, just trying to understand why you feel the way you do.

[Midwest Spy]

I hope you're alive long enough to experience Sharia Law in this country.

Then tell me which is worse.

Oh wait... you're head will have been lopped off, so you won't be able to speak anymore.

C'mon, MS. Sharia Law? In the United States of America? What is going on in the middle of the country that so many people have thoughts similar to yours? That's a serious question. I have never heard anyone on the East Coast express concern about something like that, never.

I'm being serious when I say that Muslims in this country may outnumber other religions in the next 2-3 generations.

I don't think that's an outrageous belief at the rate they're immigrating to this country.

If they outnumber others and become the majority of our elected representatives, imposing Sharia Law could become real.

Maybe not in the next 20 years, but maybe the next 75?

My point was more along the lines of: living within the laws of a Christian nation or a Muslim one.

[blueberryhill]

Why is the pro-life/choice issue a religious issue? Isn't it just a personal opinion/belief issue? I am not religious but I am pro life. Religion has nothing to do with my decision.

It has been made a religious by the extreme right wing evangelist zealots.....and not appropriate for the President or Vice President to be a part of either "side." Right now it is legal in the USA.....Go to another thread to debate your beliefs, etc....this thread is the "Trump Presidency" and as such, should not get in the mix.. Is that too difficult to comprehend? I know I have interjected my beliefs on this thread, but trying to get some of you people to stay focused on the issue of Gov't and Church is a waste of time. Your personal beliefs are not the issue in this particular comment which Duchess first commented that she couldn't believe Pence was speaker at the pro-life march......Vice President was totally inappropriate and the fact that some of you don't get this, validates my point that some of you are just obtuse.

You can have morality with the absence of religion and church, BB. Morality isn't a personal opinion or belief, it's just knowing right from wrong. Obviously it's wrong to murder someone unless it's in self defense, right? When the murderer is punished no one questions it being a religious issue.

On the other hand religion is often pushed as morally right, as with homosexuals. Homosexuals aren't hurting anyone though so that's a religious belief and doesn't have anything to do with morality.

But abortion, well just how right do you think that is BB? When you have an abortion you are taking a life aren't you? That's not a belief, it's a fact. So to me it's much more than the government trying to tell women what to do with their bodies based on religion. Its much bigger than that.

Abortion may be necessary in the world we live in, but that doesn't mean it's morally right.

..I am not going to debate abortion on here with you Sally. Obviously, you are unable to walk in the shoes of others or ever had to make this decision or to live in a society where women died from having an abortion and the only birth control available was the rhythm method. Your self-righteous attitude is quite off putting to me..so you continue to live in your perfect little world but remember the pain that others went through so that you could have the rights you have today. I would like to know if you stop at the birth of the child and I would assume if you feel abortion (I am not pro abortion, but I am pro choice) is morally wrong, then you also don't mind paying more in taxes to cover birth control for poor women, to pay more taxes to feed, clothe, and pay medical bills of this baby. Yes, I am repeating myself....but some pro-life people vote against increase in education budgets, medical care, food programs, etc. for children...also some of the biggest proponents of leaving gun laws alone are among the so called pro-lifers.....My morality is none of your business, Sally and that is the point. Nor is it the business of the Government......Why is this issue bigger than the Gov't telling you what to do? Since when did the sexual lives of people and failure or lack of birth control ends in an unwanted pregnancy, become a lesser event in what the Gov't does or doesn't do. Maybe you just have to live through an earlier time to understand where I am coming from, but i do get tired of debating this with people who for one reason or another, cannot put themselves in the shoes of another person to try to gain insight into all that goes into the horrendous experience a woman goes through when she thinks she has no other choice than having an abortion and the whole country gets to make that decision for you. Not in my World......(Longest sentence in history)..

ETA: Now Trump is a good example of a morally deficient person and that is a fact.....So? Why are you making these distinctions in answer to original comment about separation of Church and State.....Yikes!

[HairOfTheDog]

It doesn't mean abortion is morally wrong either; morality is subjective. I've never met anyone, including pro-choice activists, who consider abortions "precious", sal.

But, some women and some couples consider abortion the best option for them for a variety of reasons. To me, it would be wrong to force them to carry and give birth against their will simply because abortion offends some people on religious and/or moral grounds.

People who find abortion morally wrong shouldn't have one, they also shouldn't have the power to legally force their religious or moral beliefs on other people's lives, in my opinion.

Of course a fetus is a developing life within a woman's body and I don't take that lightly. But, I don't take the rights of women and couple's power to make their own reproduction choices lightly either.

The government does not fund abortions; it's false when politicians frame it as if that's currently happening. It's a fact that it's against federal law and not happening. Also, 92% of abortions are performed within the first 13 weeks of gestation and 7% within 21 weeks of gestation. The number of late term abortions where a fetus could live naturally on its own or feel any pain is already very small and declining. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/d...ortion.htm

Anyway, the contention that it's an all-or-nothing issue is not shared by a lot of us. I don't feel that I'm morally superior to people who choose abortion nor to people who would never consider it. And, I don't object to banning late term abortions (24 weeks on, or "unassisted viability outside the womb") or even abortions after 20 weeks (since a handful of pro-life doctors claim a fetus might be able to feel pain that early).

I'm not morally inferior to anyone who opposes abortion or feels it's an immoral necessity, in my opinion. And, it's okay with me if some of you think that I am.

[HairOfTheDog]

Anyway, I don't care that Mike Pence and Kellyanne Conway use their government positions to advocate for their religious and moral beliefs when they address like-minded people.

I will care if they attempt to use their government positions to legally force their religious and moral beliefs upon those of us who who see things differently and strip us of our rights to make our own choices.

[blueberryhill]

BBH, I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, but, when someone is as disdainful toward something I believe in, I want to figure out why.

I'm on your side when it comes to televangelists, fire & brimstone preaching, etc.

The Christianity I'm part of really does preach Jesus' love of everyone. Tolerance toward all.

My church has a Muslim outreach program.

It's pretty amazing.

Anyway, not trying to tell you what to believe in AT ALL, just trying to understand why you feel the way you do.

I am not a religious person, but do I pray and believe in God...I do......it is only way I can explain our existence, but I live and try to treat people fairly and i think one's spirit is their "religion." It is about how you treat other people in your life without hate and judgement (other than the normal arguments).....you don't lie, cheat, steal, etc....Too many people I have known throughout my life who have called themselves Christians are some of the biggest phonies I know..They are consumed by hate, greed, racism. aggression, rage, etc....
I think you have heard some of their rhetoric on TV during election coverage...."I wish those homos and blacks would just kill each other or words to that effect. Franklin Graham spews hates when talking about gays/lesbians, etc.....where is his loving, forgiving, caring representation of religion according to Jesus? No, there are just too many Christians claiming to be peaceful, loving people when this is far from the truth.....and that is where I am coming from
When I get to know somebody, i don't require they be a Christian, only that they are not racist judgmental bigots.....hope that answers your question.....there is a little more to it involving a childhood experience but I really don't want to share that now......

[sally]

Why is the pro-life/choice issue a religious issue? Isn't it just a personal opinion/belief issue? I am not religious but I am pro life. Religion has nothing to do with my decision.

It has been made a religious by the extreme right wing evangelist zealots.....and not appropriate for the President or Vice President to be a part of either "side." Right now it is legal in the USA.....Go to another thread to debate your beliefs, etc....this thread is the "Trump Presidency" and as such, should not get in the mix.. Is that too difficult to comprehend? I know I have interjected my beliefs on this thread, but trying to get some of you people to stay focused on the issue of Gov't and Church is a waste of time. Your personal beliefs are not the issue in this particular comment which Duchess first commented that she couldn't believe Pence was speaker at the pro-life march......Vice President was totally inappropriate and the fact that some of you don't get this, validates my point that some of you are just obtuse.

You can have morality with the absence of religion and church, BB. Morality isn't a personal opinion or belief, it's just knowing right from wrong. Obviously it's wrong to murder someone unless it's in self defense, right? When the murderer is punished no one questions it being a religious issue.

On the other hand religion is often pushed as morally right, as with homosexuals. Homosexuals aren't hurting anyone though so that's a religious belief and doesn't have anything to do with morality.

But abortion, well just how right do you think that is BB? When you have an abortion you are taking a life aren't you? That's not a belief, it's a fact. So to me it's much more than the government trying to tell women what to do with their bodies based on religion. Its much bigger than that.

Abortion may be necessary in the world we live in, but that doesn't mean it's morally right.

..I am not going to debate abortion on here with you Sally. Obviously, you are unable to walk in the shoes of others or ever had to make this decision or to live in a society where women died from having an abortion and the only birth control available was the rhythm method. Your self-righteous attitude is quite off putting to me..so you continue to live in your perfect little world but remember the pain that others went through so that you could have the rights you have today. I would like to know if you stop at the birth of the child and I would assume if you feel abortion (I am not pro abortion, but I am pro choice) is morally wrong, then you also don't mind paying more in taxes to cover birth control for poor women, to pay more taxes to feed, clothe, and pay medical bills of this baby. Yes, I am repeating myself....but some pro-life people vote against increase in education budgets, medical care, food programs, etc. for children...also some of the biggest proponents of leaving gun laws alone are among the so called pro-lifers.....My morality is none of your business, Sally and that is the point. Nor is it the business of the Government......Why is this issue bigger than the Gov't telling you what to do? Since when did the sexual lives of people and failure or lack of birth control ends in an unwanted pregnancy, become a lesser event in what the Gov't does or doesn't do. Maybe you just have to live through an earlier time to understand where I am coming from, but i do get tired of debating this with people who for one reason or another, cannot put themselves in the shoes of another person to try to gain insight into all that goes into the horrendous experience a woman goes through when she thinks she has no other choice than having an abortion and the whole country gets to make that decision for you. Not in my World......(Longest sentence in history)..

ETA: Now Trump is a good example of a morally deficient person and that is a fact.....So? Why are you making these distinctions in answer to original comment about separation of Church and State.....Yikes!

I'm not pro-life, I'm not self righteous, and I'm not judging the 16 year old girl who gets an abortion because she feels there is no other option for example. I think that option should be available. I've never said anything different, I don't know where you're getting any of that from.

What I said is that abortion is indeed a moral issue because it's taking a life. Morals are different from religious beliefs and don't necessarily have anything to do with church and state. The two don't have to go hand and hand. So while I agree with the separation of church and state, I don't believe abortion is exclusively a religious issue. It's a moral one that involves more than just a bunch of holy rollers trying to control women's bodies. You would surely expect some opposition when it comes to terminating the lives of unborn beings , wouldn't you.

So to me it's simply a moral issue and not a religious issue. It also involves more than just the women's body, there is another body developing in there.

So religion aside, do you think it's only ok for the government to intervene with their morals when it's on your side or your cause?