(11-30-2009, 11:56 PM)SyberBitch Wrote: Well Ant, I haven't finished all 2000+ pages of the bill, but I did find this interesting little tidbit.
Ant Wrote:7 SEC. 1555. FREEDOM NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN FEDERAL
8 HEALTH INSURANCE PROGRAMS.
9 No individual, company, business, nonprofit entity, or
10 health insurance issuer offering group or individual health
11 insurance coverage shall be required to participate in any
12 Federal health insurance program created under this Act
13 (or any amendments made by this Act), or in any Federal
14 health insurance program expanded by this Act (or any
15 such amendments), and there shall be no penalty or fine
16 imposed upon any such issuer for choosing not to
17 participate in such programs.
That is, by the way, the only use of the word 'fine' in the entire document, aside from a paragraph stating that an entity who fails to provide required information will be fined, and that people providing false information in applying for benefits will be fined.
I'm still wondering what your source is on 'forcing' people to sign up with the govt plan or be put in jail (or fined). Everything I have read so far, says that folks will have the option of maintaining their current health insurance, or choosing from an alternate plan if they WANT to. I've seen nothing to this point saying people HAVE to choose a plan.
I've seen plenty of articles and posts claiming all of this negative stuff, but I've yet to see any FACTS to support what they are saying. I'm sure people were throwing bitch fits when 'welfare', medicaid and medicare were put into place too.
You say you don't want the govt 'forcing' us to participate in such programs, but every one of us is already required to pay into Social Security benefits that most of us will probably never see. At least some of that money is going toward actually taking care of people who need it. I hope.
Thank you for actually listening Syber... I appreciate that. The usual liberal answer lately is if you lean conservative, you're called names, your lumped in with with the far right and your point of view is never even considered.
Keep reading. You showed me something in regard to businesses and corporations. This is a fine on an individual. Sometimes watching the senate and house debates on Cspan yeilds me this information.
What I showed you is the latest Senate bill that they are going to debate now. The house bill had it in there. I dont' think it's been taken out and in fact, I've seen Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reed making several speeches mentioning this fine and forced purchase of the government plan if the individual has no insurance through his company or parents.
They are basing this on "the 21 year old who is healthy and feels they can live forever and refuses to purchase health insurance for now." theory. What if they get into an accident? Who will pay? They want to make sure "no one" has to by forcing this upon them.
Then there's the new regulations they want to impose on women - how convenient is it that all of a sudden mammograms dont' need to be done until we are 50? Cervical cancer screenings don't need to be done every year anymore but every 2 or 3? This was JUST announced by some gov't study/regulation/suggestion, not private doctors.
The cost of this bill is out of control and most of the shit in there is unnecessary. The "blue dog" Democrats are not happy with this bill and want to shoot it down. It's long and unecessarily complicated.
Remember when I mentioned the EASY way to deal with this is to use the Medicaid system already in place? Clean it up, take out the shit, make it so people can join into it on a sliding scale basis according to income and this will in turn throw money into it and leave more incentive to pay doctors and hospitals etc and join in and participate. That's a basic idea, i'm sure implementing that is much more complicated but its' WAY better than what is going on now.
I never said reform isn't needed, it certainly is. But its insurance reform that is needed NOT our health care system.
(12-01-2009, 04:26 AM)Luke Warmwater Wrote: The rich people aren't going to go bankrupt by having an additional 1% tax added to their income taxes. Shit, back in the 20's-30's the rich were paying a 99% tax rate and they still got rich. 99% boys and girls!!
Yeah, when you have a lot of money it doesn't bother you. But when you slog through that shit of a bill you're going to find that they are going to start taxing more than the "rich".
They want to put an extra tax on private health insurance plans - which they adorably named "cadillac plans" (there ya go Duchess).
They want to tax soda, juice drinks, and other foods they deem unhealthy. All to prevent you from getting sick.
Read the bill Luke - our privacy is in trouble with this as well.
Although it's been said time and again no new taxes on the middle class, it's bullshit - the new taxes are stuck in on the sly in many different ways in our every day lives. Small businesses will be taxed if they don't participate in the plan. So in Syber's finding above they may not be fined but they sure will be taxed. Oh and add onto that the tax added to the "cadillac" plan the small business has!
This bill is actually designed to drive private health insurance out of business. Tax small businesses so they HAVE to turn to the gov't plan and eventually force the private citizen to dump their plans as they know them due to it becoming useless or too expensive through taxes.
So, that 1% piles up and snowballs and then spreads out to all. Either way, if ONLY the "rich" ($250,000 salary is MIDDLE INCOME in this part of the country btw) actually do carry this load? The gov't is going to figure out it isn't going to be enough money and raise those taxes swiftly and regularly.
A flat tax would be a good idea but everyone laughed at that because those with sticky fingers would have to reform.
Oh, and all the bullshit thrown about "People losing their coverage..." or "People not getting the coverage they need..." Did anyone think that this is too a twist of the words? Yes people lose coverage every day, how? You lose a job and your COBRA runs out. Or you purchased a crappy plan that hardly covers anything - much like the crap plan we have now. Dont' even get me started on that cuz we're seriously thinking of droping it, that's how crap it is.
They keep saying they are going to keep it so you can keep the coverage you have, keep your doctor that you like etc but that's impossible! How can you expect someone who's lost their job to be able to stay with the plan from that company? Businesses purchase 'group' coverage under the umbrella of the business. If someone does not work for you anymore why on earth should you provide discounted coverage for them? It's unereasonable.
How about where they say they will not be touching Medicare? That's a giant load of bullshit too. They are going to clean up Medicare's waste and use it to finance this bill. Well, how is that not taking away from it? Why not use the money to go back into that system and make it better? Oh and they want to scrap Medicare Advantage - you know the better of the two that more people rely on because it coincides with their private supplemental plan attached to it. Yeah, they're not touching stuff for seniors.
I do like the idea of making it so "pre-existing conditions" are not allowed to be discriminated against. That is part of health insurance REFORM that is needed.
You see, insurance is nothing short of a gambling operation. They take a chance on you when you place your "bet" for them to cover you. They risk taking you on that you won't burn your house down, die in the fire, get into a catastrophic accident, are clumsy and acccident prone, sickly etc.... they want you to pay premiums year after year so they can make money.
They make low-balled payment deals with hospitals and doctors so they can be on their "plan" but give them the run around when it's time to get paid and they too dictate what they will allow a doc to do for their patient.
They've basically stacked the odds in THEIR favor and if they would be considered a legal gambling operation instead of insurance, that would be illegal.
Try having a dog and getting homeowners insurance in NJ. I can go on and on.
So, yes we need refrom, but not at the expense of this bill. It's not a well thought out bill and it's growing by the day. It started out with 1800 pages and now is up to 2700 pages and NO ONE but those who are talking negatively about it has bothered to read it. Hell, our president hasn't even read it but he wants it enacted so he has something he can brag about. I say scrap it, start over and get something better to brag about.
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