ABORTION

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't know what point you're trying to make Maggot because you're all over the map, literally and figuratively.

As I posted upthread, it's a fact that the majority of abortions in the U.S. are performed on white women, Maggot. It's not a matter of "depending on who does the numbers".

The racial comparison graphics you posted are for specific states and cities, not nationwide.

It is however true that black women are more than 3x as likely to end an unintended pregnancy with abortion as compared to women of other races, so the percentage of black abortions is disproportionately high as compared to the black percentage of the total U.S. population.

Anyway, you sound confused. You think low-income blacks should complain because they have a choice to have abortions (at PP) rather than produce unwanted children (which in many cases, would result in a government-funded welfare payout for years and years instead)? You, Maggot, don't think all abortion is murder (that's what you posted upthread), but you think black people should see it as murder for some reason?

[Maggot]

You're being literal about the discussion of abortion. As murder your abortion stance is muddled. You had me looking through this thread where I said abortion is not murder but you took what I said about the morning after pill as OK and twisted it as a consent for abortion as not murder. I believe abortion after 12 weeks is legal murder without court. The amount of abortions after the 20 week time is few, so is the amount of abortions for life threatening or rape related cases. that figure is under the 5% umbrella of all abortions.
From the beginning in the U.S. after Roe/Wade more blacks have had abortions than the amount of Jews killed in WWII. That may sound like an awful statement but its true. Look at the statistics since 1973.

Do you support unlimited term abortions? And are you standing by your statement that more white people have had abortions than people of color?

Many states are de-funding PP as is their right because federal funding is not used for abortion. So my question to you is, do you think that all federal funding is never used for any abortion related material or procedures?

[Maggot]

Anyway, you sound confused. You think low-income blacks should complain because they have a choice to have abortions (at PP) rather than produce unwanted children (which in many cases, would result in a government-funded welfare payout for years and years instead?). You, Maggot, don't think all abortion is murder (that's what you posted upthread), but you think black people should see it as murder for some reason?

I just think that blacks should be concerned about the high percentage rate. But if you believe less darkies in the world would be better and cost less. I think you may be right but the end does not justify the means.

[Blindgreed1]

I don't know what point you're trying to make Maggot because you're all over the map, literally and figuratively.

As I posted upthread, it's a fact that the majority of abortions in the U.S. are performed on white women, Maggot. It's not a matter of "depending on who does the numbers".

The racial comparison graphics you posted are for specific states and cities, not nationwide.

It is however true that black women are more than 3x as likely to end and unintended pregnancy with abortion as compared to women of other races, so the percentage of black abortions is disproportionately high as compared to the black percentage of the total U.S. population.

Anyway, you sound confused. You think low-income blacks should complain because they have a choice to have abortions (at PP) rather than produce unwanted children (which in many cases, would result in a government-funded welfare payout for years and years instead?). You, Maggot, don't think all abortion is murder (that's what you posted upthread), but you think black people should see it as murder for some reason?

Yup, the National average is teenage white girls.

[Maggot]

Crap.............I forgot about you.............

[Blindgreed1]

Crap.............I forgot about you.............

I have some pretty strong feelings about abortion as well Maggs. My ex aborted my 2^nd son without my knowledge. What PP is doing here is a good thing and all within the the CFR's for tissue. The GOP needs to find something else to grandstand on. They backed the wrong horse on this one.

[HairOfTheDog]

You're wrong, Maggot.

I was referencing your suggestion that your objection to abortion applies only to late-term abortions, rather than all abortions (I don't recall your statement about morning after pills at all).

You suggested a seemingly arbitrary and self-invented definition of "late term" in a subsequent statement you made in this thread (wherein you said that you don't support banning abortions up to like an 8 week cut-off). I asked you for clarification and you chose not to answer. That's okay; I support your right to choose too!

Anyway, if you support the right to choose up to 8 weeks (which is long before the fetus can feel pain or survive on its own outside the womb), then I think it's logical for me to assume that you don't consider life to start at the point of conception, or you do consider life to start at point of conception and yet you support murder up to 8 weeks. There aren't any other explanations that I can imagine.

I'm not trying to trick you or corner you or anything like that. I'm just trying to understand where the hell you stand in this topical discussion, which is difficult to ascertain based on your statements.

Yes, I stand by my statements and I've supported them with credible sources.

And, yes, no doubt there have been more abortions by blacks alone (and whites alone, and Hispanics alone) since Roe vs. Wade than there were Jews killed in WWII.

I support the federal cut-off criteria for abortions in Roe vs. Wade -- the point at which the fetus could survive on its own outside of the womb (est. 22 - 24 weeks), with exceptions for mother's life, rape and incest. However, I would not object to pushing the federal cut-off up based on the criteria of fetal-pain capacity (est. 18 - 20 weeks) with the same exceptions. And while I don't like late term abortions, I also don't object to states like yours choosing to offer unlimited term abortions.

[Maggot]

So you would agree that the support or the non support of abortion is not a yes or no simple answer. I'm agreeable in that context. I just wish politicians would be able to take some kind of middle ground and because of voting citizens both parties cater to their party. It shouldn't be so cut and dry when dealing with a life.

[Maggot]

Crap.............I forgot about you.............

I have some pretty strong feelings about abortion as well Maggs. My ex aborted my 2^nd son without my knowledge. What PP is doing here is a good thing and all within the the CFR's for tissue. The GOP needs to find something else to grandstand on. They backed the wrong horse on this one.

It does not matter how the tape was obtained to me, what matters is the raunchy attitude a PP director had towards the tissue. It is very close to being criminal. I wonder if the doctor that handles injections for death penalty criminals would be so judged if he or she were smiling and happy as the needle went in. Then went on to dismiss it as OK because its legal.


The real question is how can the Democratic party NOT be repulsed by the tape.

[HairOfTheDog]

Anyway, you sound confused. You think low-income blacks should complain because they have a choice to have abortions (at PP) rather than produce unwanted children (which in many cases, would result in a government-funded welfare payout for years and years instead?). You, Maggot, don't think all abortion is murder (that's what you posted upthread), but you think black people should see it as murder for some reason?

I just think that blacks should be concerned about the high percentage rate. But if you believe less darkies in the world would be better and cost less. I think you may be right but the end does not justify the means.

My opinions are directly stated, and the facts that I cite are sourced.

So, you don't need to deduce anything, it's right there and I own it. Nor, do you need to attribute your views to me Maggot. You could choose to just state your own views directly and clearly. You could.

Anyway, I didn't state that 'darkies' (or any other race) should be more or less concerned about the percentages of abortions. I also didn't suggest that less darkies in the world would be better, though the cost-per-person would obviously be less with fewer people. I simply explained for you the two competing options; abort the fetuses, or force more unwanted/unsupported children into the low-income communities and incur the costs for many years in many cases.

Regardless as to which of those options one finds "better" (it's subjective), the idiocy of cutting off funding for Planned Parenthood's family planning, testing, and birth control services -- which you acknowledge PP does a great job providing -- is equally blatant.

[Blindgreed1]

Crap.............I forgot about you.............

I have some pretty strong feelings about abortion as well Maggs. My ex aborted my 2^nd son without my knowledge. What PP is doing here is a good thing and all within the the CFR's for tissue. The GOP needs to find something else to grandstand on. They backed the wrong horse on this one.

It does not matter how the tape was obtained to me, what matters is the raunchy attitude a PP director had towards the tissue. It is very close to being criminal. I wonder if the doctor that handles injections for death penalty criminals would be so judged if he or she were smiling and happy as the needle went in. Then went on to dismiss it as OK because its legal.


The real question is how can the Democratic party NOT be repulsed by the tape.

So to put it into perspective, you'd be okay with all of this if they weren't discussing it as a business transaction (which it is) and remained solemn and maybe said grace and included a blessing for all aborted babies before they had their business lunch? I'm not aware of any profession that includes such practices currently. Should coroners also bless the dead and say a prayer before they perform the tasks they were educated and trained to perform? How about doctors in the ER? EMS responders?

[Maggot]

I see that abortion in your thought process is a cut and dry yes/no situation. So to ease the process and make it simpler I will have to say "maybe" as I do not believe as you do it's as simple as that.

[HairOfTheDog]

It is very close to being criminal.

The real question is how can the Democratic party NOT be repulsed by the tape.

It's either criminal or it's not Maggot. Your repulsion level has no effect on that, nor should it.

As for the Democratic party (and everybody else), I suspect a good number of those who support the right to choose, under the law, might find the casual manner of the discussion distasteful, especially with context deleted in the edited versions first released. I did. I don't doubt that some pro-choice individuals also found it repulsive.

It's not illegal to be distasteful or repulsive unless one is committing a crime in the process, which isn't the case here. Not everyone is as politically correct as you might like at all times (and in this case, the pretense was in fact a private business transaction).

I also suspect that many people, regardless of political affiliation, find the religious and politically-driven attempt to infringe on abortion rights at the cost of female health to be some repulsive thinly-veiled bullshit. I do.

[Maggot]

So to put it into perspective, you'd be okay with all of this if they weren't discussing it as a business transaction (which it is) and remained solemn and maybe said grace and included a blessing for all aborted babies before they had their business lunch? I'm not aware of any profession that includes such practices currently. Should coroners also bless the dead and say a prayer before they perform the tasks they were educated and trained to perform? How about doctors in the ER? EMS responders?
[/quote]


Well, no grace needs to be said Mr. Sarcasm but even real doctors are not casual about death. Certainly not directors. Coroners deal with the already dead so that's not the same.

How can anyone joke and call this procedure "just tissue"?



I swear people have more compassion for Cecil the Lion.

[Blindgreed1]

I see that abortion in your thought process is a cut and dry yes/no situation. So to ease the process and make it simpler I will have to say "maybe" as I do not believe as you do it's as simple as that.

This is what makes it simple for me: These Dr's aren't trying to convince women to abort the fetuses. The women have already made that choice and they can change their minds at any time prior to the procedure. What happens to the tissue after the procedure is also the woman's choice and she can choose to donate the tissue to research, or have it sterilized and used as land fill. This is all about the choices the women made regarding their fetuses and what is done with the tissue after the procedure. I don't feel as though the Dr's carry any moral obligation as they are doing what the woman chose to do after the procedure has been completed. But of course that just one man's opinion.

[Blindgreed1]

So to put it into perspective, you'd be okay with all of this if they weren't discussing it as a business transaction (which it is) and remained solemn and maybe said grace and included a blessing for all aborted babies before they had their business lunch? I'm not aware of any profession that includes such practices currently. Should coroners also bless the dead and say a prayer before they perform the tasks they were educated and trained to perform? How about doctors in the ER? EMS responders?

Well, no grace needs to be said Mr. Sarcasm but even real doctors are not casual about death. Certainly not directors. Coroners deal with the already dead so that's not the same.

How can anyone joke and call this procedure "just tissue"?



I swear people have more compassion for Cecil the Lion.
[/quote]First of all, they are "real Dr's" and secondly, I've spoken to more than a few Dr's who have a very casual attitude towards death and I don't believe they are the exception to the rule. They might not say it to the face of the deceased's relatives, but they do speak very casually about it in conversation among their peers and associates.

[Maggot]

I see that abortion in your thought process is a cut and dry yes/no situation. So to ease the process and make it simpler I will have to say "maybe" as I do not believe as you do it's as simple as that.

This is what makes it simple for me: These Dr's aren't trying to convince women to abort the fetuses. The women have already made that choice and they can change their minds at any time prior to the procedure. What happens to the tissue after the procedure is also the woman's choice and she can choose to donate the tissue to research, or have it sterilized and used as land fill. This is all about the choices the women made regarding their fetuses and what is done with the tissue after the procedure. I don't feel as though the Dr's carry any moral obligation as they are doing what the woman chose to do after the procedure has been completed. But of course that just one man's opinion.

I'm agreeable in that aspect and also believe adoption options and the step by step procedure should be explained to the woman in as much depth as the abortion option. I believe women should have the choice but they also should know all the responsibility involved.
I also still believe the video is telling in the mindset of the people doing the procedure.

[Blindgreed1]

I see that abortion in your thought process is a cut and dry yes/no situation. So to ease the process and make it simpler I will have to say "maybe" as I do not believe as you do it's as simple as that.

This is what makes it simple for me: These Dr's aren't trying to convince women to abort the fetuses. The women have already made that choice and they can change their minds at any time prior to the procedure. What happens to the tissue after the procedure is also the woman's choice and she can choose to donate the tissue to research, or have it sterilized and used as land fill. This is all about the choices the women made regarding their fetuses and what is done with the tissue after the procedure. I don't feel as though the Dr's carry any moral obligation as they are doing what the woman chose to do after the procedure has been completed. But of course that just one man's opinion.

I'm agreeable in that aspect and also believe adoption options and the step by step procedure should be explained to the woman in as much depth as the abortion option. I believe women should have the choice but they also should know all the responsibility involved.
I also still believe the video is telling in the mindset of the people doing the procedure.

As far as I know, it is the responsibility of the woman to educate herself regarding her options as a pregnant woman. That's a completely different topic though.

[HairOfTheDog]

Planned Parenthood counselors (and those at most other family planning clinics) advise their pregnant patients of three options; abortion, adoption, and parenting. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/teens/g...t-now-what

From there, the woman evaluates and makes the choice - sometimes in conjunction with her partner, parents, and/or other professionals.

[Donovan]

Anyone who has really strong opinions on abortion should glance downward. If you see a penis hanging off your body you don't have a vote. End of story. This is a country that deports children by the thousands because of an accident of geography at their birth, and subjects millions more to abject poverty, humiliation and utter hopelessness because of a paranoid fear their parent might not work hard enough to deserve the scraps we deign to gift them with. Until we actually care about the humans who have already been born, let's stop pretending to give a shit about the ones who don't live yet.