A thread critical of LE (cops & prosecutors)

[shitstorm]

Okay, this subject has come up and, a long time ago, Duchess suggested I start a thread about it. I want to be clear that I do not paint any one group of people with with one brush. I am an individualist and believe that everyone should be judged as an individual. In any group or institution, however, there can be a lot of pressure to conform and protect the group. It's a lot riskier for a cop to stand against corruption among police than it is for people in other professions. If the group happens to have a lot of Freemasons, that's another level of pressure to STFU about wrong doing.

So, I'm a Constitutionalist. I hold the founding principals of our country above all. I would never agree that trading liberty for security is a sound idea. It always leads to tyranny. Insecurity is the price of living in a free society.

I have never had a problem with a cop. I did have a Long Beach cop joke that he might shoot my dog as I walked down the sidewalk. By all rights, I should have been able to kick him in the balls for threatening us like that, but we all know how THAT would have turned out. Of course, I sucked it up and walked on. Hhe was able to get away with that shit because he was a cop, and he and his buddies all thought it was funny.

Because I'm particularly interested in the abuse and excesses of government (mostly at the federal level) and I see that as a threat to freedom, I take note at the militarization of police, police brutality, and the lack of accountability. I don't want to live in a police state, and I think we're headed in that direction. Lots of innocent people have been killed when the wrong houses have been raided (raided for crap like marijuana - a fucking PLANT!, no less). People have been tased for nothing more than "mouthing off" - IOW, in non threatening situations. Tasers CAN be lethal, too. Old people and little kids have been abused. Many, many, many innocent pets have been MURDERED. That last one makes me absolutely crazy. When I read these stories or see the videos all I can think of is how much I would like to shoot the asshole cowards who did it. OF COURSE, I NEVER WOULD. I don't want to go to prison.

Now, this is Lady Cop's place here. I respect and like her. I am not here to shit all over the carpets. This is a thread to CIVILLY discuss something very important, where we are fortunate enough to be able to have input from LC & Dick, two people who have been in LE. There may be others here, as well, but I'm too new to know. So, with that, here's a video (and I have LOTS more):

Youtube description:

This video shows a search warrant served by the Columbia Mo. police department. The cops bust in this guys house in the middle of the night and shoot his two dogs (one a pit bull that was caged in the kitchen and the other a Corgi) with children in the home. it turns out that rather than a big time drug dealer, this guy had a small pipe with some resin in it, a grinder, and what the cops here call "a small amount of marijuana" (meaning less than a few grams). We here in Comlumbia want everyone to know what kind of police department we have here, check out our "finest" in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbwSwvUaRqc

BTW, I cannot even watch that video, again. WAY to upsetting.

[FutileResistance1]

Love the thread!

[van64]

Wow. Thanks for posting and starting this thread. That video is a disgrace to those in uniform.

I have heard they kill the dogs first as a rule.

[shitstorm]

OAKLAND, Calif. -- An Oakland family was still waiting to get their dog's remains back from police Thursday night, two days after an officer shot the animal in their own back yard and left behind only a note.

When Mary Kate Hallock arrived home on Tuesday, she immediately sensed something was wrong.

Her front gate was open and at the front door, instead of the family dog, she found a note from an Oakland police officer.

'The officer wrote ‘OPD responded to your residence to investigate a burglary alarm,’” explained Hallock.

The Hallock's burglary alarm went off around 11:30 Tuesday morning. The officer said when he went to check the back yard he saw an open door and the dog -- a yellow lab named Gloria -- charged at him.

“’While checking rear perimeter, lab advanced on officer in threatening manner before being shot and killed," read Hallock from the note the officer left.

Hallock said her family was stunned by the news.

'I'm just really upset and sad,” said her daughter Isabel Hallock. “And it really didn't need to happen, I think, but it did."

Isabel and her brother Matthew Hallock said Gloria had been part of the family since she was a puppy. They said she was not an aggressive dog.

"I'm a preschool teacher. This dog goes to school with me. It's around kids all the time,” said Mary Kate Hallock. “It's just a gentle giant and is eleven and a half years old also."

The incident wasn't the first issue Oakland police have had with animals this year. Back in May, there was widespread outcry after officers cornered a small deer in the backyard of a home in a quiet residential neighborhood and shot it to death before animal control personnel could arrive on the scene.

An Oakland police spokeswoman said the officer followed proper protocol. The officer had thought it might be a burglary in progress and said he feared for his safety when the dog ran toward him.

He left the note to alert the owners before taking the dog's body to animal control.

That response offered little solace to the Hallock family, who said police protocol should be reconsidered.

“We just keep going back to why shoot the dog?” said Mary Kate Hallock. “Shoot and kill the dog? We would just love for some other family not to go through what we're going through, ‘cause it's heartbreaking."

The Hallocks hope police in the future will consider using pepper spray or a Taser on dogs instead of a gun.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/25234528/detail.html

Video at link
************

This is REALLY hard for me to post this shit. At another forum where I hung for years, we had these stories pinned almost daily, because there are so damn many of them. You have not seen cop hatred from ordinary, law abiding people, until you participate in a 100 page thread on dogs being killed.

So, why does this happen? Because LE selects for bullies who get their rocks off killing the defenseless. I KNOW, not all cops are like this but even one is too many and there are a ton of them. They are no better than some piece of shit who abuses his dog in his backyard. They just happen to have a badge and a gun and THEY GET AWAY WITH THIS SHIT.

Were I in LE, I would want these dirtbags OUT of my profession.

[shitstorm]

Wow. Thanks for posting and starting this thread. That video is a disgrace to those in uniform.

I have heard they kill the dogs first as a rule.

And, ya know what? I want THEM killed. I am a peace loving, non violent, vegetarian, Jeffersonian, law abiding lady and this makes me insane with anger. When I see this stuff I hope that some local gets even and kills those bastards.

Two beloved dogs MURDERED and a family that will have PTSD forfuckingEVER. Think those kids will grow up respecting cops?

[shitstorm]

Here's a classic. This cop was fired but I don't know if he was CHARGED. This is a good video in that it deals with a situation where the person in custody has done something wrong (drunk driving) and is mouthy. It's important because it addresses the disparity of power and force. She's got to be all of 110 lbs and he's a big guy, in a police station. He's a professional and should know how to handle this situation without engaging in assault and battery. Notice that she is HANDCUFFED when it gets really ugly. If I did that to someone, I'd be in jail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxgNKNEtk18

[shitstorm]

Youtube description:

This is video from a police car's dash-cam that shows Tennessee State Troopers shooting a North Carolina family's dog (around 3:03 in the video). It happened while the family was returning from their vacation in Nashville. Police say they stopped them because they "matched the description" in a robbery that had just occurred (they were actually INNOCENT). The officer who shot the dog (Eric Hall) hasn't been punished for the episode; he has only been reassigned to "administrative duties". The Tennessee Department of Safety issued an apology here: http://tennessee.gov/safety/newsreleases...ement.html

Here is the account of what happened from the point-of-view of Eric Hall: "I yelled at the dog to 'get back' but it attempted to circle me to attack, so I felt that I had no other option but to protect myself."

Here is the account of what happened from the point-of-view of the family: "My dog then came out of the car and ran towards the officer with the shotgun and flashlight. We started yelling to please let us get him, don't shoot, he was only barking at the flashlight and jumping at the light. My son plays with him using a flashlight. This is when my dog was murdered."

Further information:
http://tinyurl.com/2f97jv
http://tinyurl.com/2esao5
http://tinyurl.com/2xyjgd
http://tinyurl.com/yrkssb


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv0T2X1dXcI


Well fuck me but i think I could get this treatment in communist China but, noooooooooo! All I have to to do is head to Tennessee.

[shitstorm]

Woops, wrong house. Too bad, so sad for you mutherfuckers!


A 61-year-old man was shot to death by police while his wife was handcuffed in another room during a drug raid on the wrong house.

Police admitted their mistake, saying faulty information from a drug informant contributed to the death of John Adams Wednesday night. They intended to raid the home next door.

The two officers, 25-year-old Kyle Shedran and 24-year-old Greg Day, were placed on administrative leave with pay.

“They need to get rid of those men, boys with toys,” said Adams’ 70-year-old widow, Loraine.

John Adams was watching television when his wife heard pounding on the door. Police claim they identified themselves and wore police jackets. Loraine Adams said she had no indication the men were police.

“I thought it was a home invasion. I said ‘Baby, get your gun!,” she said, sitting amid friends and relatives gathered at her home to cook and prepare for Sunday’s funeral.

Resident Fired First

Police say her husband fired first with a sawed-off shotgun and they responded. He was shot at least three times and died later at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville.

Loraine Adams said she was handcuffed and thrown to her knees in another room when the shooting began.

“I said, ‘Y’all have got the wrong person, you’ve got the wrong place. What are you looking for?“‘

“We did the best surveillance we could do, and a mistake was made,” Lebanon Police Chief Billy Weeks said. “It’s a very severe mistake, a costly mistake. It makes us look at our own policies and procedures to make sure this never occurs again.” He said, however, the two policemen were not at fault.

Cont., http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1

[shitstorm]

Speaks for itself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eul8Bohn_Zk

[shitstorm]

Identity theft, wrong people, two dogs killed, "Unfortunate" says police chief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Com08ILgQ&NR=1

[AriGold]

Okay, this subject has come up and, a long time ago, Duchess suggested I start a thread about it. I want to be clear that I do not paint any one group of people with with one brush. I am an individualist and believe that everyone should be judged as an individual. In any group or institution, however, there can be a lot of pressure to conform and protect the group. It's a lot riskier for a cop to stand against corruption among police than it is for people in other professions. If the group happens to have a lot of Freemasons, that's another level of pressure to STFU about wrong doing.

So, I'm a Constitutionalist. I hold the founding principals of our country above all. I would never agree that trading liberty for security is a sound idea. It always leads to tyranny. Insecurity is the price of living in a free society.

I have never had a problem with a cop. I did have a Long Beach cop joke that he might shoot my dog as I walked down the sidewalk. By all rights, I should have been able to kick him in the balls for threatening us like that, but we all know how THAT would have turned out. Of course, I sucked it up and walked on. Hhe was able to get away with that shit because he was a cop, and he and his buddies all thought it was funny.

Because I'm particularly interested in the abuse and excesses of government (mostly at the federal level) and I see that as a threat to freedom, I take note at the militarization of police, police brutality, and the lack of accountability. I don't want to live in a police state, and I think we're headed in that direction. Lots of innocent people have been killed when the wrong houses have been raided (raided for crap like marijuana - a fucking PLANT!, no less). People have been tased for nothing more than "mouthing off" - IOW, in non threatening situations. Tasers CAN be lethal, too. Old people and little kids have been abused. Many, many, many innocent pets have been MURDERED. That last one makes me absolutely crazy. When I read these stories or see the videos all I can think of is how much I would like to shoot the asshole cowards who did it. OF COURSE, I NEVER WOULD. I don't want to go to prison.

Now, this is Lady Cop's place here. I respect and like her. I am not here to shit all over the carpets. This is a thread to CIVILLY discuss something very important, where we are fortunate enough to be able to have input from LC & Dick, two people who have been in LE. There may be others here, as well, but I'm too new to know. So, with that, here's a video (and I have LOTS more):

Youtube description:

This video shows a search warrant served by the Columbia Mo. police department. The cops bust in this guys house in the middle of the night and shoot his two dogs (one a pit bull that was caged in the kitchen and the other a Corgi) with children in the home. it turns out that rather than a big time drug dealer, this guy had a small pipe with some resin in it, a grinder, and what the cops here call "a small amount of marijuana" (meaning less than a few grams). We here in Comlumbia want everyone to know what kind of police department we have here, check out our "finest" in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbwSwvUaRqc

BTW, I cannot even watch that video, again. WAY to upsetting.

Terrible. I hate seeing instances where the execution of search/arrest warrants results in the execution of family pets.


There have been several cases here in DC of excessive force against animals.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...03938.html

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0610/746319.html

Totally unacceptable.

[shitstorm]

Domestic problems? Think twice before asking the cops to handle it.

Dead son, dead dog


Elvira Fernandez said she called police to teach her son respect after she caught him throwing things at the wall of her south Phoenix trailer.

Fearing the 29-year-old would hit her, she went to a neighbor's house to dial 911.

When Phoenix police Officer Richard Chrisman and another patrolman arrived in response to her domestic-violence call, she asked them to reason with her son. She expected they would issue a warning and cool things down.

Instead, about 15 minutes later, Danny Frank Rodriquez was shot dead inside the trailer. One of the family's dogs was also fatally shot.

And Chrisman now faces felony charges.

"I felt like I made the wrong choice calling the police," Fernandez, 60, told The Republic on Wednesday from a friend's trailer in the same complex where her son was killed Tuesday. "I regret it with everything in my heart."

Chrisman, a nine-year veteran who spent his career patrolling the South Mountain Precinct, was arrested hours after the shooting on suspicion of aggravated assault. Police officials said Wednesday that he could face additional charges, possibly murder.

The other officer on the scene told police investigators that Rodriquez was unarmed and that neither officer faced any serious threat of violence, according to court documents that describe his interview with police investigators.

Cont., http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoen...06-ON.html

[shitstorm]

From one of your articles, Ari -

Marietta Robinson, 62, is still visibly traumatized after witnessing her 13 year old companion, Wrinkles, be shot and killed Tuesday night.

Robinson says the pitbull mix grew to be more than 100 pounds.

"I've had her since she was the size of my wrist... I still can't believe this," said Robinson.


Too bad for you, Marietta! Get another dog.

Fuck.

[AriGold]

FYI, I'm not bashing police in general. I fully support them and acknowledge the difficulty of their jobs. I also firmly believe there are more good ones than bad.

That said, I think there needs to be a shift in policy -- especially when handling low level / non-violent warrants.

CASE IN POINT:

They Always Shoot the Dog

A cop on a paramilitary drug raid decided to cut across the lawn at an adjacent home. The homeowner’s watch dogs did exactly what they’re supposed to do when an uninvited guest trespasses on the property. They attacked.

So the cop shot ‘em

One thing I’ve noticed while picking through the depressingly long list of botched drug raids:

The cops always shoot the dog.

I guess it’s to get them out of the way. Given all the armor SWAT teams usually don, it’s certainly not out of fear for their own safety.

When the target of the raid and the dog’s owner proves to be innocent, a low-level pissant offender, or a medical marijuana patient (and there are multiple examples of all three), there’s generally no apology or compensation from the police department for needlessly pumping the famiily dog full of lead. What’s worse, most courts the monetary value on the loss of a pet at zero. So should the neighborhood SWAT team erroneously break into your house and kill your dog, you can forget about a lawsuit.

On a slightly lighter note, I relayed my “they always shoot the dog” observation to a colleague here at Cato. He told me he’s discoverd something as he’s given interviews and speeches over the years about the Waco massacre.

Apparently, people who think that perhaps the government acted properly in invading and burning down a house of largely innocent (but admidetly weird) people get really pissed off when they learn that the federal government also slaughtered the Brand Davidian dogs. Women and children? Meh. Weirdo cultists probably deserved it. But…

“They killed the dogs? Aw, man. That’s bullshit.”

I’ll need to remember that when I’m promoting this paper.

Here’s a particularly egregious example of puppy-cide from Marcicopa County, Arizona, home of conservative darling and self-proclaimed “toughest sheriff in America,” Joe Arpaio. After conducting a ridiculously bumbling and overly militaristic raid that netted a total of one arrest for outstanding traffic violations, a raid which subsequently set a friggin’ house on fire, and in which the sheriff’s armored personnel carrier (yes, he has one) lost its brakes and rolled down the street, smashing a car — the SWAT team wasn’t quite done:

[I]n the ultimate display of cruelty, a SWAT team member drove a dog trying to flee the home back into the inferno, where it met an agonizing death.

Deputies then reportedly laughed as the dog’s owners came unglued as it perished in the blaze.

“I was crying hysterically,” Andrea Barker, one of the dog’s owners, tells me. “I was so upset. They [deputies] were laughing at me.”

Making fun of the 10-month-old pit bull puppy’s death wasn’t enough.

Arpaio’s goons then left the dog’s body to rot in the ashes for the next five days of 105-degree temperatures. A pall of death hung over the neighborhood. It was a putrid reminder of Arpaio’s reckless use of force and callous disregard for the public’s welfare. Not to mention the heinous treatment toward the terrified dog.

More details:

Within minutes, the upstairs of the house was engulfed in flames. Kush, Barker says, could hear Dre, his prized pit-bull puppy, yelping, and he jumped from the attic to try to save the dog.

As black smoke billowed from the house, Barker says, Kush frantically tried to get Dre to run outside, the puppy yelping “like a baby.”

At one point, Dre ran from the master bedroom and bolted down the stairs toward the front door, where it came face to face with a SWAT team member. Instead of letting the dog run outside, the SWAT member reportedly launched a counterattack.

“They shot the dog in the face with a fire extinguisher when he tried to come out of the fire,” says Trisha Golden, Gabrial’s younger sister, who helped raise the dog and was outside the burning home calling for it to come out. She did not live at the house, but hung out there frequently, she says. She heard about the fire and came immediately. “He turned and ran back into the master bedroom and burned [to death].”

Delfino says he asked one of the SWAT officers what happened to Dre and was told that the dog had been “neutralized” with the fire extinguisher. He asked the officer if the dog had attacked anybody, and the cop said no.

As smoke filled the house and Kush’s efforts to save the dog failed, he finally fled from the burning home and was immediately thrown to the ground and his hands and feet were cuffed by four SWAT officers.

Only one guy was charged as a result of the raid. And as noted, he was charged with outstanding traffic violations.

[shitstorm]

Think your dog is safe at the dog park? Think again!


Federal police officer shot dog in Arundel park
Anne Arundel authorities say man killed husky after dogs fought in park
August 03, 2010|By Jill Rosen and Brent Jones, The Baltimore Sun

Stunned dog owners and residents of a Severn neighborhood are shocked that authorities won't be charging a federal police officer who shot and killed a Siberian husky Monday night at a community dog park.

Bear-Bear, a brown and white husky that was about 3 years old, was playing in the Quail Run dog park at about 6:30 p.m., running off leash inside the fenced-in area, when the officer and his wife arrived with a German shepherd, who was kept on a leash. When the dogs began to play roughly, the federal officer asked Bear-Bear's guardian, his owner's brother, to call off the dog. But before he could do anything, the officer pulled out a gun and shot Bear-Bear, according to the husky's owner.

Bear-Bear, who belongs to Rachel Rettaliata, died of his injuries a few hours later. County police did not name the federal officer.

"I've been bawling my eyes out since 7 p.m. last night," Rettaliata said. "It's grief mixed with anger. We're so angry this guy was able to take our animal for what we feel was no reason at all.

"We still don't believe that he's gone. We just want so badly to be diligent about this. [The officer] has to pay some sort of consequence for his foolishness."

A spokesman for the Anne Arundel County Police Department said no charges will be filed and investigators found no evidence of criminal activity.

Rettaliata adopted Bear-Bear about two years ago from a husky rescue. He'd been seized from a Delaware home where people had tied him up outside, largely leaving him to fend for himself in the elements.

Tiffany Greco, who fostered the young Bear-Bear and placed him with the Rettaliata family, said the husky had led a hard-knock life, starved and neglected, with mats in his long fur the size of softballs. But even though he was mistreated, she said he never became aggressive around people or dogs.

"He was a very lovey-dovey, happy-go-lucky guy," Greco said, adding that Bear-Bear at least had a taste of a good life with the Rettaliatas. "All this dog wanted to do was curl up on top of you."

She said that huskies have a rough way of playing that, to people who don't know them, can seem intimidating.

"They have a much different play style than other dogs," she said. "They're a rough-and-tumble breed. They're mouthy. Often people interpret that as being aggressive when it's really them just playing."


http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-08...epherd-mix

[AriGold]

From one of your articles, Ari -

Marietta Robinson, 62, is still visibly traumatized after witnessing her 13 year old companion, Wrinkles, be shot and killed Tuesday night.

Robinson says the pitbull mix grew to be more than 100 pounds.

"I've had her since she was the size of my wrist... I still can't believe this," said Robinson.


Too bad for you, Marietta! Get another dog.

Fuck.

Odd--the original story had it reported as a pug?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eul8Bohn_...r_embedded

[AriGold]

Think your dog is safe at the dog park? Think again!


Federal police officer shot dog in Arundel park
Anne Arundel authorities say man killed husky after dogs fought in park
August 03, 2010|By Jill Rosen and Brent Jones, The Baltimore Sun

Stunned dog owners and residents of a Severn neighborhood are shocked that authorities won't be charging a federal police officer who shot and killed a Siberian husky Monday night at a community dog park.

Bear-Bear, a brown and white husky that was about 3 years old, was playing in the Quail Run dog park at about 6:30 p.m., running off leash inside the fenced-in area, when the officer and his wife arrived with a German shepherd, who was kept on a leash. When the dogs began to play roughly, the federal officer asked Bear-Bear's guardian, his owner's brother, to call off the dog. But before he could do anything, the officer pulled out a gun and shot Bear-Bear, according to the husky's owner.

Bear-Bear, who belongs to Rachel Rettaliata, died of his injuries a few hours later. County police did not name the federal officer.

"I've been bawling my eyes out since 7 p.m. last night," Rettaliata said. "It's grief mixed with anger. We're so angry this guy was able to take our animal for what we feel was no reason at all.

"We still don't believe that he's gone. We just want so badly to be diligent about this. [The officer] has to pay some sort of consequence for his foolishness."

A spokesman for the Anne Arundel County Police Department said no charges will be filed and investigators found no evidence of criminal activity.

Rettaliata adopted Bear-Bear about two years ago from a husky rescue. He'd been seized from a Delaware home where people had tied him up outside, largely leaving him to fend for himself in the elements.

Tiffany Greco, who fostered the young Bear-Bear and placed him with the Rettaliata family, said the husky had led a hard-knock life, starved and neglected, with mats in his long fur the size of softballs. But even though he was mistreated, she said he never became aggressive around people or dogs.

"He was a very lovey-dovey, happy-go-lucky guy," Greco said, adding that Bear-Bear at least had a taste of a good life with the Rettaliatas. "All this dog wanted to do was curl up on top of you."

She said that huskies have a rough way of playing that, to people who don't know them, can seem intimidating.

"They have a much different play style than other dogs," she said. "They're a rough-and-tumble breed. They're mouthy. Often people interpret that as being aggressive when it's really them just playing."


http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-08...epherd-mix

This officer was charged with: inflicting unnecessary suffering and pain to an animal and discharging of a firearm within 100 yards of an occupied structure

[shitstorm]

OMG, Ari :( I could barely read that.

Tell me, why should anyone capable of that not get a bullet in his worthless head.


I also want to add, right here - I KNOW THAT COPS ARE GUNNED DOWN DOING THEIR JOBS. We are not talking about good cops here. We're talking about sadistic psychos and bullies who hide behind their badges and departments. They are a danger to society, just as much as any gang banger - worse, in fact, because I'm not crossing paths with any gang bangers but I COULD cross paths with one of these cops.

[shitstorm]

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-08...epherd-mix

This officer was charged with: inflicting unnecessary suffering and pain to an animal and discharging of a firearm within 100 yards of an occupied structure

And what does that charge bring? Probably a fine instead of the severe punishment that he deserves. Prolly still has his "federal officer" job, too.

Bastard.




I didn't realize that your article, Ari, was the same lady in one of my vids. The photo must have been from when Wrinkles was a puppy.

[AriGold]

OMG, Ari :( I could barely read that.

Tell me, why should anyone capable of that not get a bullet in his worthless head.


I also want to add, right here - I KNOW THAT COPS ARE GUNNED DOWN DOING THEIR JOBS. We are not talking about good cops here. We're talking about sadistic psychos and bullies who hide behind their badges and departments. They are a danger to society, just as much as any gang banger - worse, in fact, because I'm not crossing paths with any gang bangers but I COULD cross paths with one of these cops.

My dogs are like my children and to see these animals' lives (and their owners) disregarded like this is really sad.

The idea of shooting animals first is a "shock and awe" tactic usually reserved for SWAT teams entering dangerous homes and serving high-risk warrants. Furthermore, in most of those cases, drug dogs are guarding the house. They are usually mean as fuck and can/will attack. In those situations, it's justified to use force.

The rules of engagement for deadly force should be the same as any other situation: only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort to protect his or her own or anther's life and limb.