Would better gun control help?

[Disciple]

SECOND Amendment.

My bad.

[Riotgear]

P.S. After the horror had faded, my next reaction was astonishment that in a western state like Colorado, at a midnight movie showing, NOBODY but the crazy was packing. Might have been an entirely different outcome if one brave person with a weapon had been in the crowd.

This^

[Ilyanna]

Do you believe that if the German population had had the right to bear arms in 33, the genocide would have been prevented? Or that Stalin would have been overthrown?

No because the Germans were brainwashed and bought the propaganda ...

I wouldn't necessarily call it brainwashed, since a lot of them knew quite well what they were doing, but yeah, that. That's why the right to bear arms would have done either shit all against the Nazis, or even increase the no. of people killed.

[Ilyanna]

Before any government can truly hobble its citizens, it must first disarm them. Shitstorm is absolutely right about that. That Genocide Chart that she put up was copyrighted by Jews for the Preservation of Gun Ownership. Ask the Jews. They know all about it. Tell THEM it can't happen and that the right to bear arms is superfluous.

Yes, please, do ask the Jews. Preferrably those who survived almost half of Europe's citizens intent on killing them. Ask them if a gun would have helped them against the Gestapo and SS. It is so bloody disrespectful to even hint that only if they had had access to guns, they would have survived the Shoah. IMO, people who do so ridicule the helplessness in the face of the cold-hearted organisation of the genocide, underestimate the complexity of mechanisms the government implemented to round them up and kill them, and ignore the overpowering malevolence of so-called 'fellow' citizens who, in most cases, didn't lift a finger to help them. ~70.000 Jews against ~69.900.000 people in Germany in 1933. They didn't stand a chance, even if every single one of them would have had a gun.

I get the reasoning behind the 2^nd amendment, but honestly, anyone believing that the population of a country can defeat a government single-handedly with a few rifles hasn't really paid attention in the past few years. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the right to self-defense. Actually, I want all those nice, shiny, bigass weapons, too, I wanna own them, use them as I see fit, and don't have anybody tell me I may not do so, or I only may have a certain variety. My motives are purely egotistical, a mixture of survival-instinct and a fascination with explosives. I stand by these motives, and I suspect that they are at the root of all those reasons given by others, as well.
I also think, though, that if I want the right to bear whatever arms I like, I immediately lose the right to complain when someone else uses that right for whatever reason.
I have no respect for any asshole who thinks snuffing out an innocent's life because they can't deal with their's is justifiable, but the choice of weapons they use is not even making the list of problems I have with that attitude.

[pspence]

[size=medium][i]

I think if the government tried to take the guns away from citizens there would be a revolt the likes of which they had never seen before. The shit would hit the fan in a major way.

There is a group of great educated bright guys I work with don't who dont think it's a stretch at all to think the govt could turn on us. They also are stock piling guns as they are convinced there is going to be a revolution in U.S. between the haves and have nots. If you tried to take their guns away duchess is right , there would be an uprising we could only dream about. They are just good plain hard working people - hunters and sportsmen - they mind their own business ... But dont fuck with their guns. Personally I think they are a tiny bit redneck but I listen, they are my buds.

[Jezreel]

Before any government can truly hobble its citizens, it must first disarm them. Shitstorm is absolutely right about that. That Genocide Chart that she put up was copyrighted by Jews for the Preservation of Gun Ownership. Ask the Jews. They know all about it. Tell THEM it can't happen and that the right to bear arms is superfluous.

Yes, please, do ask the Jews. Preferrably those who survived almost half of Europe's citizens intent on killing them. Ask them if a gun would have helped them against the Gestapo and SS. It is so bloody disrespectful to even hint that only if they had had access to guns, they would have survived the Shoah. IMO, people who do so ridicule the helplessness in the face of the cold-hearted organisation of the genocide, underestimate the complexity of mechanisms the government implemented to round them up and kill them, and ignore the overpowering malevolence of so-called 'fellow' citizens who, in most cases, didn't lift a finger to help them. ~70.000 Jews against ~69.900.000 people in Germany in 1933. They didn't stand a chance, even if every single one of them would have had a gun.

I get the reasoning behind the 2^nd amendment, but honestly, anyone believing that the population of a country can defeat a government single-handedly with a few rifles hasn't really paid attention in the past few years. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the right to self-defense. Actually, I want all those nice, shiny, bigass weapons, too, I wanna own them, use them as I see fit, and don't have anybody tell me I may not do so, or I only may have a certain variety. My motives are purely egotistical, a mixture of survival-instinct and a fascination with explosives. I stand by these motives, and I suspect that they are at the root of all those reasons given by others, as well.
I also think, though, that if I want the right to bear whatever arms I like, I immediately lose the right to complain when someone else uses that right for whatever reason.
I have no respect for any asshole who thinks snuffing out an innocent's life because they can't deal with their's is justifiable, but the choice of weapons they use is not even making the list of problems I have with that attitude.

Ilyanna you are right, guns would not have helped the Jews in that situation, and some of them had them too, some were were able to fight them off in an uprising. But for the most part they stood no chance against an army pf people who thought they were they were even lower than the shit on their shoes.

If you lived in the US you'd understand better than you do. There's an oft time misunderstood and underappreciated taking up of arm that's deeply rooted in (at least the last) generation of men willing to do what must be done to secure society. I feel it. Many of my friends feel it. I've passed it down to my sons.

This is often mistaken for some sort of gung ho badass bullshit. More often then not, in reality, it's strong stable men who feel the weight of their responsibility to family country and fellow man who are willing to do what's required in even the most deadly situations to ensure _peace_.

People on the outside looking in rarely understand this IMO.

A simple trip though the statistical analysis of crime rates after the relaxing of laws prohibiting concealed carry shows without question that an armed society is indeed a polite society.

Another post brought up the suggestion that victims or families of victims of gun crime would advocate gun control. I'd be willing to bet a person or family of a person or people who were _saved_ by a citizen with a gun would tell a different story. They're out there. Just not as touchstone or incendiary.

I said I would stricter gun control, not ban the right to carry arms all together. I understand people will always be able to obtain them illegally, but there has to be more consequences. Yes there might have been a different outcome if someone in the cinema was carrying that night, it could have gone better, it could have gone worse, maybe there in Aurora they don't feel they need to, i'm sure that will change now though.

[shitstorm]

Doesn't just about everyone in Switzerland have a gun, but the crime rate is low? What are they doing that is right? I guess it's just a different breed of people.

Correct. Americans are violent crazy assholes. The Swiss are such kind gentle people these sorts of things can go on [holy shit!] -

http://www.guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.html

Thanks for that GREAT article! I knew they were required to keep guns in every home but never knew the details.

I found the info about the social context (strong families, local control) to be very sad when looking at our own society. The states were once like what was described in Switzerland and it was intended to remain so. Then came the progressives...

[Jimbone]

I get the reasoning behind the 2^nd amendment, but honestly, anyone believing that the population of a country can defeat a government single-handedly with a few rifles hasn't really paid attention in the past few years.

Just a casual observation, but that has actually happened several times in just the last year or so.

Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, and currently going on in Syria. People fought back against their better armed governments with a few rifles.

We all know it's not the few rifles that the defeat any government. It's the movement that is created when people decide to fight back. The rifles probably just help them feel more confident about fighting back. Movements either gain support from the outside and succeed in regime change - or the opposed government crushes the movement because support never materializes.

[SIXFOOTERsez]

Yet another point, you do not need a gun, auto or not to kill a bunch of folks

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/A...2-06-05-46

Teenager kills 8 , wounds 5 in China knife attack


BEIJING (AP) -- A teenager killed eight people with a knife and wounded five more in northeast China after falling out with his girlfriend, state media said Thursday.

The teen killed two of her family members and six more people before fleeing, the state-run Legal Daily newspaper said. It reported he was caught but did not describe the circumstances.

The official Xinhua News Agency said the attack took place Wednesday night in Liaoning province. Media said the 17-year-old suspect is from Fushun city and his surname is Li. The attack happened in Yongling town.

Police in Xinbin county, which oversees the town, declined to comment.

Violent crimes are growing more common in China. There was a string of knife attacks against schoolchildren across the country in early 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50.

[Ilyanna]

Jimbone, my statement was in reference to the idea that the right to bear arms plays a major role in a population single-handedly overpowering its government, as shitstorm seems to imply.

Tunisia - from what I have seen from the different media sources, the revolution in Tunisia was, at least to a large extent, non-violent, at least on the side of the protesters. Firearms or a right to bear them (did they have that right? I can't find information on that) most certainly did not play a major role in it, or were the key to success. People were throwing stones, not firing guns.

Egypt - same applies here. The day of anger did not see hundreds of people using their legally acquired firearms to shoot their opponents or even threaten to use them. Think they would have used stones against the military/police forces if they had had firearms?

Libya - the protests that started the whole process were NOT done with firearms. The heavy weaponry was broughht into it with parts of the military changing allegiance. As for the single-handedness of the liberation - um, yeah...

Syria - yes, the population is fighting with firearms. Do they stand a chance against Assad without massive help from outside? Not very likely eh?

As far as I can see it, there's not that much of an evidence that the right to bear arms really does anything if it comes to fighting tptb. I'm still open to be proven wrong, though.

We all know it's not the few rifles that the defeat any government. It's the movement that is created when people decide to fight back.

Exactly.

The rifles probably just help them feel more confident about fighting back.

You might have a point there. I know I would feel more confident with a rifle, if I were inclined to fight someone. Then again - how probable is it that the people in above examples had the right to bear arms, did own some, felt a boost of confidence by owning them, and then left them at home when they went protesting?

(Jezreel, just a short notice - thanks for your post. It calmed me considerably, I appreciate that )

[Jimbone]

We're sort of on the same page, just interpreting differently I think.

I think the right to bear arms prevents the government from overpowering its population. A subtle, but very important difference.

When looking at the Arab Spring examples... don't forget the American revolution started peacefully and without guns as well. But it certainly didn't end that way, and people being able to fight back against the powers that be before additional support arrived is eventually why the tide turned.

I think the evidence you're looking for likely resides in the history of America. Of course that is where the controversy is originating from as well... so it might take a bit to unpack perhaps.

Food for thought.

[Jezreel]

(Jezreel, just a short notice - thanks for your post. It calmed me considerably, I appreciate that )

My pleasure. It irks me when people say stupid shit like that, basically comparing the shoah to mass shooting or using it as an argument for gun control. You responded much more eloquently to that then I could have

[Ilyanna]

I think the evidence you're looking for likely resides in the history of America. Of course that is where the controversy is originating from as well... so it might take a bit to unpack perhaps.

Food for thought.

Good points. I admit it has been a while since I last read up on the details of the American revolution, and most certainly not from the angle of what exactly the role the armament of the people played. I'll get back to you when I've done so.

You responded much more eloquently to that then I could have

Somehow I doubt that. I'm just wordier than others at times