GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, OR DO THEY?

[HairOfTheDog]

A thread to discuss, debate and/or contemplate whether:


-Private gun ownership should be banned altogether

OR

-Stricter control should be legislated (i.e. increase the restrictions on gun-types, how many guns can be owned, where guns can be carried, who can qualify for gun ownership, etc...)


OR

-Gun control should be left as-is


OR

-Open-carry and free for all on gun ownership and possession is the way to go



etc...

[HairOfTheDog]

From today's Huffington Post:

WASHINGTON -- In the wake of Friday's mass killing at an elementary school in Connecticut, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said Sunday that she plans to introduce an assault weapons ban bill on the first day of the new Congress.

"I'm going to introduce in the Senate, and the same bill will be introduced in the House -- a bill to ban assault weapons," Feinstein said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

The shocking murder of 26 children and adults in Newtown, Conn., on Friday has sparked a national discussion on gun control, with mostly Democratic legislators saying laws need to be tightened.

President Bill Clinton signed an assault weapons ban into law in 1994, but the measure expired a decade later. Democrats have tried several times since then to renew the ban, without success.

Feinstein called for the ban to be renewed after the mass shooting in an Aurora, Colo., movie theater that killed 12 people and injured 58 others.

"Who needs these military-style assault weapons? Who needs an ammunition feeding device capable of holding 100 rounds?" Feinstein wrote on her campaign website. "These weapons are not for hunting deer -- they’re for hunting people."

On Sunday Feinstein laid out details of the bill.

"It will ban the sale, the transfer, the importation and the possession, not retroactively, but prospectively," and ban the sale of clips of more than ten bullets, Feinstein said. "The purpose of this bill is to get... weapons of war off the streets."

Feinstein would not comment on whether President Obama had failed to lead on gun control. "He is going to have a bill to lead on," she said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16...11477.html

[username]

I'm definitely left on this one. I support the assault weapons ban as well as expanding the Brady Bill to require background checks for private gun sales (gun shows etc.).




I'll be surprised if it happens though.

ETA: Guns don't kill people they just make it easier to do so and assault type weapons even more so. I just don't get why the average Joe should be allowed to own a weapon of that type. The 2^nd amendment says right to bear arms but it didn't specify ALL TYPES of arms as far as I know. Besides, as I said in a separate thread, our founding fathers couldn't have imagined today's weaponry.

[Sphincter Cop]

I'm definitely left on this one. I support the assault weapons ban as well as expanding the Brady Bill to require background checks for private gun sales (gun shows etc.).




I'll be surprised if it happens though.

ETA: Guns don't kill people they just make it easier to do so and assault type weapons even more so. I just don't get why the average Joe should be allowed to own a weapon of that type. The 2^nd amendment says right to bear arms but it didn't specify ALL TYPES of arms as far as I know. Besides, as I said in a separate thread, our founding fathers couldn't have imagined today's weaponry.

Ha, I am sure whatever BILL/LAW gets passed; the criminals of society will take notice and follow it.

[HarleyGuy]

I'll re-visit this later this week.

But for now, anyone who thinks more gun laws will prevent such atrocities I invite them to read up on the Bath School disaster.....of 1927.

As I said earlier...........it's time to arm teachers.

[Sphincter Cop]

[username]

Why do regular citizens need assault weapons?

[SIXFOOTERsez]

SO I guess Feinstein didn't read any of the articals in this last event, there were no asault weapons used.
I don't think Joe Blow needs an asault rifle either. I also think the founding fathers had the perspective of keeping We The People as well armed as the Govt.
User, Gun Show sales already require a background check, I just got one yesterday.
More laws are not the answer. Everytime a guy takes a gun to a school he breaks about 15 laws, 5 more are not going to stop him. Everytime a hood rat does a drive by he violates about 15 laws, probably more because he already a convicted felon. More aws are not going to fix this. Banning gun sales is not going to fix this. There is no one majic bullet that will fix this
Laws that keep the fucking loons off the street will help. A court system that is not a revolving door for assholes will help. People paying attention to WTF is going around them will help. Locking down the schools will help. More better trained armed private citizend will help. Personal responsibility for your weapons will help
There are a lot of things that will, but stricter gun sales laws will not unless they involve tracability.

[username]

Good post, Six.

I thought the rifle he used was considered an assault rifle?

I'm not saying all these sprees wouldn't occur if we had stricter laws, I just don't feel any safer (the opposite) knowing some of these weapons are out there.

Maybe I should get a gun.

[Sphincter Cop]

Why do regular citizens need assault weapons?

I do not think it is a question of need over the fact that they "can" own them. Which is probably over the top for any person to own one. I can see an avid collector wanting one, but what would you use it for other than to do some target shooting or display? Who the hell goes hunting with one and WTF do you hunt? LOL

I think gun control lacks the necessary sense in controlling an overall social symptom; rather than addressing the cause/effect of the ultimate problem with mass shootings. Not every "mass" shooting involved assualt weapons.

[blueberryhill]

Six, so you are saying the 223 bushmaster rifle is not an assault weapon; it is automatic weapon so guess i don't know difference. How many rounds can you put in the bushmaster? Anyway, the Sheriff said is was an assault like weapon. Is bushmaster primarily used for
hunting. sorry, i don't that much about guns.

[ramseycat]

Guns don't pull their own triggers. People do. If this guy only had a ove shooter, he still would have killed at least a few people. 2 people or 26 people....any number is too many.

[username]

When I get home, I need to look up that background check thing for gun shows. Somebody on CNN just reiterated what I said (from reading about it earlier) that there is a background check "loophole" for shows. I thought I read that only federay registered gun dealers were required to do the checks or something.

Meh. Probably not worth closing that one now that I think about it. If someone is determined to get a gun, they will.

[SIXFOOTERsez]

A Bushmaster is concidered by some to be an asault weapon. Last I heard, the Bushmaster the guy had was still in the car and had not been used in the school attack. He used 2 semiauto handguns, even the pre-Ban clips for them would have been a total of 32 bullets, no idea at all what version he had. The Bushmaster and all of its ilk can be fed with whatever capacity magaxine you can get, I have seen them in 20, 30 and 50 round.
The Gun Show laws are regulated by each state, Here in Florida you have to pass the call in IF you already have a CCW permit. I do, so they call in and it may take 30 minutes on a busy day. They have a clearing house to call into and verify your CW is good, then you can take your purchase that day. If you do not have a CCW, we have a mandatory 3 day wait time for all gun purchases, this gives time for a more thurough background search, this is done by some govt agency or other, FDLE out here.
Do a little research, most of the killings are not done by legal licensed owners, they are career criminals or nuts. The Movie House guy was a fruitcake if anyone had bothered to look around. The guy that whacked Gabby Gifford was a certified whacko, still managed to buy a gun. The mohamed asshole in killeen texas was a known collaborator that the fucking FBI knew about and they did nothing. The 2 assholes in columbike, Kids, no legal right to a gun, one had the cutoff barrel from the shotgun on his dresser in plain sight in his room for some time, mom and dad never even looked around.
The laws are there and they work if anyone bothers..
One thing I can tell you, if I had been in the theater, or the school, the body count would have been a lot lower.

[SIXFOOTERsez]

Oh, there are a lot of Semiauto rifles out there, other than what is generally concidered to be an ashault rifle. There is no functional difference other than the military style guns have fittings for multiple optics and synthetic stocks, no reasom to trash a prefectly good pretty walnut stock.
See this scary looking thing?

Quick change mounts, night time optics, laser sighting, tactical light, red dot scope, point and shoot technology, folding stock
Full On Ashault rifle right? All scary and shit?
Thats a 22 caliber rifle I built to sit and punch holes in paper targets.
Nothing illegal about it, never was, hopefully there never will be.
Great gun to teach kids how to shoot with, I'll be teaching my grandkids with it.

[Maggot]

Mexico has a gun ban, you can see how well thats going. The insane ones are the excecutioners. Providing service with a smile. Now only the cartels have guns.

[Jimbone]

Listen, I'm a reasonable person.

I get just as disgusted with gun supporters who try and pretend that guns don't do the killing.

'Oh well, if he didn't have guns he would've driven a car bomb into the school, or run in there with a machete, blah, blah, blah.

You people are equally offensive to me.

Then some bring up DUI's and want to draw a parallel.

Wrong.

I'm not supporting banning guns. That'll never happen.

But please gun owners, stop with your FAUX outrage over the governor trying to make some sort of statement about guns, and.... Ready for this??

HOW THEY ARE THE MOST CONVENIENT, EASIEST WEAPON TO USE TO SLAUGHTER PEOPLE!

You're something else. First you say you're a reasonable person who wants to have a meaningful dialogue, but then you go and dismiss anything else that could be brought to the conversation.

DUI is a great parallel whether you like it or not. The numbers of people killed by DUI drivers and the number of people killed by guns is just about equal. They are both REAL and DESTRUCTIVE problems that take thousands of lives annually. There is causation and effect in both deadly transactions, one is done by vehicle and alcohol and one is done by firearm. You can't just dismiss it because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

And it's funny you mention bombs, because I am sure you know that is how the worst school killing in US history went down. No gun used at all. Dynamite and fertilizer.

I'm all for making it harder for crazy people to get firearms. When serious people want to have that discussion, I am ready. But talking about banning guns doesn't even come close to solving the problem. Not by a long shot and you know it.

The Brady Bill and so-called assault weapon ban did absolutely NOTHING to lower crime rates or gun violence in any real way. Where was the FAUX outrage about that?

But yes, by all means let's make ourselves feel better about our decaying society by passing a stricter law that will also do absolutely NOTHING. Fine, let's ban the Glock and Sig Sauer models this asshole used. Will that make everyone feel better? The Bushmaster in the car too, even though it wasn't used. Will everyone be happy then? What ever will we do when the next one comes along and they use a shotgun? Ban them as well of course!

Go ahead MS, keep beating up on gun rights advocates if it makes you feel better. The sad truth is that the real problem isn't the gun, it's the person using it. Just like the drunk getting into the car is the real problem, not the car or the alcohol independently. The person is the problem.

I know you reject that completely, but there is no other logical way around it.

[username]

A Bushmaster is concidered by some to be an asault weapon. Last I heard, the Bushmaster the guy had was still in the car and had not been used in the school attack. He used 2 semiauto handguns, even the pre-Ban clips for them would have been a total of 32 bullets, no idea at all what version he had. The Bushmaster and all of its ilk can be fed with whatever capacity magaxine you can get, I have seen them in 20, 30 and 50 round.
The Gun Show laws are regulated by each state, Here in Florida you have to pass the call in IF you already have a CCW permit. I do, so they call in and it may take 30 minutes on a busy day. They have a clearing house to call into and verify your CW is good, then you can take your purchase that day. If you do not have a CCW, we have a mandatory 3 day wait time for all gun purchases, this gives time for a more thurough background search, this is done by some govt agency or other, FDLE out here.
Do a little research, most of the killings are not done by legal licensed owners, they are career criminals or nuts. The Movie House guy was a fruitcake if anyone had bothered to look around. The guy that whacked Gabby Gifford was a certified whacko, still managed to buy a gun. The mohamed asshole in killeen texas was a known collaborator that the fucking FBI knew about and they did nothing. The 2 assholes in columbike, Kids, no legal right to a gun, one had the cutoff barrel from the shotgun on his dresser in plain sight in his room for some time, mom and dad never even looked around.
The laws are there and they work if anyone bothers..
One thing I can tell you, if I had been in the theater, or the school, the body count would have been a lot lower.

Nah. The shooter used the bushmaster to kill all those people. He only used a hand gun to kill himself.

[Midwest Spy]

Jim, please read through my posts and quote where I said that we should ban firearms.

Thanks though for continuing to post about DUI's and bombs.

Thanks for not acknowledging, even once, that yes, guns make the killing oh so easy. In fact much easier than bombs, or knives, or even harsh language.

I'm not okay living in a society where this happens and we have to shrug our shoulders and say, 'well, that's a tough break.'

What do we do Jim?

[Jimbone]

Jim, please read through my posts and quote where I said that we should ban firearms.

Thanks though for continuing to post about DUI's and bombs.

Thanks for not acknowledging, even once, that yes, guns make the killing oh so easy. In fact much easier than bombs, or knives, or even harsh language.

I'm not okay living in a society where this happens and we have to shrug our shoulders and say, 'well, that's a tough break.'

What do we do Jim?

I have no simple answer MS. But I know that what is going to be proposed in legislation, probably passed, and then made law will do nothing to address the real problem.

Guns make it easier until we have plasma rays. Plasma rays will make it easier until we have quantum disruptor beams. It is what it is... I'm not shrugging my shoulders at it, I simply want the focus to be on people who kill and not the objects they select to do the killing. I'm not attempting to run from the gun argument, I'm just attempting to get to the root cause.

For example, if this kid had Asperger's and someone suggested we need to round up and institutionalize all Asperger's sufferers we would reject that as ridiculous wouldn't we?

I recognize that you personally don't want to ban guns. But there are people that do, and they will use every opportunity to try and do it. This is heartbreaking and emotionally very difficult - but when it comes to our liberties emotion must be quelled and reason has to prevail.

Like you, I've wept at this tragedy... seeing in the innocents the faces of my own similar aged children. It's truly unspeakable what this subhuman did. But I see the attempt to exploit the tragedy as an opportunity to restrict our rights as something I should be equally concerned about.

Truthfully, it fucking blows no matter how you look at it.