GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, OR DO THEY?

[HairOfTheDog]

More details on the shooting of Andy Lopez

Santa Rosa Lt. Paul Henry told the press that it appears Gelhaus and his partner encountered Lopez about 3 p.m. as he walked down a street. Gellhaus's partner was a trainee. He did not have time to get out of the car and seek shelter behind a door before the whole incident went down - he was the driver and was behind the wheel the whole time.

Andy Lopez's hood was down and he did not have ear plugs in at the time of his shooting.

Gelhaus told investigators that he could not remember if he identified himself as a police officer before firing at 13 year-old Lopez.

Gelhaus said that he tried CPR and other life-saving measures after the shooting.

"When he touched the weapon and briefly looked at it, felt that it wasn't the proper weight and looked different, that was when he first began to suspect it was a replica firearm,'' according to Gelhaus's report conveyed to Henry.

[Duchess]

Why do they always have to keep shooting after the person is down? I read that time after time. There have been people killed after being shot 20-30 times. It's fricken ridiculous. Are these police officers such bad shots that it takes that many to get control of the situation? If so, get those stupid fucks off the street.

[username]

I agree, Duchess. I remember LC saying that they're never trained to just shoot someone in the leg or something but once a couple of shots have been fired you'd think they would pause for a moment to assess the threat situation.

[Cynical Ninja]

The armed response units in the UK are super duper. They specialise in shooting unarmed people with mental health problems and executing innocent people on public transport because they look a bit “ragheadish”.

“Put down the Nerf gun you little motherfucker or we'll put 25 caps in your ass”

[Maggot]

The armed response units in the UK are super duper. They specialise in shooting unarmed people with mental health problems and executing innocent people on public transport because they look a bit “ragheadish”.

“Put down the Nerf gun you little motherfucker or we'll put 25 caps in your ass”

England is finally waking up. Praise the Lord!
In Germany they tried to segregate the Muslim girls from the boys, that did not go over so well. They are all able to raise their hands now and answer questions right along side the other kids. Angela Merkle said "If you are in Germany you adapt to German culture" and so it should be.

[Cynical Ninja]

As usual you completely missed the point I was trying to make knucklehead. Shooting people that should instead be sectioned under the mental health act? = bad thing, executing people because they look like raghead suicide bombers when they are in fact Brazilian born electricians? = bad thing.

The ridiculous and murderous actions of the armed response units who are supposedly specially trained are exactly why most Brits don't want all police officers to be armed. After they were given taser guns they have gone completely mental with them tasering people left right and centre often on occasions where it was completely unnecessary. The US police are used to having firearms and they are blowing people away left right and centre in many cases where its completely unnecessary and often times filling people with enough lead to sink a model boat.

The last thing the British police need are fucking guns if one day they do all become armed I'm not leaving the house without being covered from head to toe in kevlar.

[F.U.]

OK, here is another one for the real or fake question. Can anyone tell me if this is a real gun or a toy?

[Midwest Spy]

F.U., if that is a toy, what would be the point of having a toy like that?

Who'd buy something like that, and for what reason?

[F.U.]

MS, strange as it sounds there is a big call for these look-a-like firearms. Check out some of the M-16's, Tommy guins, M-1 carbines, usi and 1911's in this link.

http://www.replicagunsdirect.com/

[F.U.]

I forgot to add, a AK-47 look-a-like like the one that HotD posted a pic of [the one that got Lopez killed] will cost you about $250.00.

http://www.collectorsarmoury.com/prodinf...er=22-1086




Or if you want to get even closer to a actual firearm, you can get one of these blank firing replicas. They will look and sound like the real thing.

http://www.collectorsarmoury.com/products.asp?dept=33

[HairOfTheDog]

I forgot to add, a AK-47 look-a-like like the one that HotD posted a pic of [the one that got Lopez killed] will cost you about $250.00.

http://www.collectorsarmoury.com/prodinf...er=22-1086

I'd be surprised if 13 year-old Lopez was carrying a high-end collectible replica like that.

IMO, more likely an airsoft AK47 for games and stuff. Those start around $60.


Pic: A real AK47 on the left; the replica Lopez was carrying on the right.

I can't tell what brand of airsoft Lopez was carrying from the pic, but I've seen some selling for $99 and $159 too.

They all look a lot like the real thing, in my eyes.

[F.U.]

They do look a lot like the real thing HotD. However I see that the forearm on the toy is wrong [larger and squarer], The barrel is to short and the gas tube is to far forward on the barrel, as well as the fact that there are no sights are all give aways to me. Now would someone that is not as familiar with firearms as I am spot these things, probably not. Would I spot these things if the toy got pointed at me, I really cant say. I would like to know if they toy was actually pointed at the cops, or was it still slung over Lopezes shoulder when the cops opened fire. That would make a BIG difference in how I reacted.


One thing I do believe is that until the day comes that the cops realize the fact that not everyone with a gun is a bad guy this kind of thing will continue to happen.

I have actually ben on the street with my AR slung across my back, just like Lopes had his AK and I had no issues and my rifle was real and loaded. The situation was, I happened to have my AR at the shop working on it that day, It was closing time and while Tony was locking up I stood watch [ like I always do] and then we both walked to our trucks. No one freaked out, the cops didn't get called, nothing. Then again Iowa has a Carry Dangerous Weapons permit in effect. That means anyone who takes the training , passes the tests, passes the background checks, pays their fees and receives their permit can walk down the street with whatever they want to on their person. I routinely open carry my sidearm and rarely even get a second look anymore. Then again the cops know the laws and know that unless there is a real problem, and someone being afraid that someone else has a gun is not a problem, they cant even demand to see our permit.

IMO, until a firearm gets drawn and used in a threatening manor there should be no issue.



I will give a answer to the real or fake pic tomorrow. That will give time for others to take a guess.

[Duchess]

I think our society has evolved in such a way that it's become more prudent to shoot first & ask questions later. I don't agree with it because it's shoot to kill but I sorta kinda have a better understanding of it.

[SIXFOOTERsez]

OK, here is another one for the real or fake question. Can anyone tell me if this is a real gun or a toy?

Looks like a MP38, can't tell real or not, nice piece

[F.U.]

Good eye Six.


I posted this one to add to the confusion of what is real and what is fake. This one was actually a trick question. This old German grease gun is actually a real toy. What you ask, real toy? Yes a real toy. This was a actual firearm and then someone, for the life of me I don't know why they would do this to this piece of history, but anyway it was a real firearm that someone decommissioned. That means they took a firing gun and altered it so it no longer would fire. They leaded the barrel, removed the springs and follower from the magazine, cut the springs in the receiver so that the bolt would still travel but without enough force to fire and altered the firing pin and bolt. So now what once was used in a world war is now a toy.

Its not bad enough that someone altered this piece of history, but now we have a multi fold issue. One is we have to worry about a youngin pulling this on someone and getting shot because of it. Second we have to worry that ANYONE, even a felon, can own this "toy" now. No permits, no background checks, no federal forms to fill out, no ID's needed. Third is that someone that is good with firearms can actually reverse the alterations and once again make this a full auto killing machine.

Here is a link to a short video of the MP38 being fired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEox_8G7NXw

[Adub]

I forgot to add, a AK-47 look-a-like like the one that HotD posted a pic of [the one that got Lopez killed] will cost you about $250.00.

http://www.collectorsarmoury.com/prodinf...er=22-1086

I'd be surprised if 13 year-old Lopez was carrying a high-end collectible replica like that.

IMO, more likely an airsoft AK47 for games and stuff. Those start around $60.


Pic: A real AK47 on the left; the replica Lopez was carrying on the right.

I can't tell what brand of airsoft Lopez was carrying from the pic, but I've seen some selling for $99 and $159 too.

They all look a lot like the real thing, in my eyes.

I think a lot of people thought that LE was holding up, for comparison, the actual bb gun that Andy Lopez was carrying the day he was shot by Gelhaus. It's not. We don't even know if the size is accurate. The bb gun that Andy Lopez had is probably a cheap ass toy that costs about $30.

[HairOfTheDog]

Thanks, Adub.

I grabbed the pic from an article in USA Today. The caption below the pic:
Santa Rosa Police Lt. Lance Badger displayed an AK-47 assault rifle, left, next to a replica airsoft pellet gun carried by Andy Lopez, 13, when he was shot and killed by a Sonoma County Sheriff's deputy Oct. 22, 2013.(Photo: John Burgess, The Press Democrat/EPA).

Pretty deceptive captioning.

Anyway, the pic in post #1059 is for sure the actual toy AK47 carried by Lopez - evidence photo released directly by the PD. I don't know much about guns - real or replicas - so the replicas in both photos look the same to me.

Lopez could have been carrying a really cheap one for sure. It's being said that the airsoft AK47 was one used by the kids in the neighborhood - Andy borrowed it from a friend.

LE isn't releasing the model and type details, so it's unclear if it was a replica that required an orange cap or the type that was produced/sold without it. The handgun toy that he was carrying did have an orange tip in tact, according to latest reports.

I see the Lopez family has filed suit against Sonoma County and Gelhaus - I understand they're being represented by the attorneys who successfully sued the LAPD officer for $24 million in a similar case back in 2010.

Some of the claims in the suit don't match what has been released by PD (like the claim that the deputy-in-training got out of the car and drew in tandem with Gelhaus).

I wish this shooting had been caught on tape.

Lawsuit story:
http://www.msnbc.com/martin-bashir/paren...le-lawsuit

[Cynical Ninja]

I couldn't give a fuck how realistic the replica was that shouldn't be the fucking issue here.

The issue is why the police were so eager and trigger happy to gun down a BOY! That is surely more of a concern than how realistic the replica he was carrying was.

I used to play with toy guns with my friends all the time outside when I was a kid and the issue of whether or not a cop would show up and fill me full of lead wasn't an issue and it shouldn't be in 2013 either.

[Duchess]

I think this was the kid who was wearing a hoodie & the cops couldn't see he was a child. I'm not excusing this just showing they didn't know he was a boy.

[HairOfTheDog]

His hood was reportedly down.

But, you're right that the deputies claim they didn't know he was a kid.

They approached and began shooting Lopez from behind, is my understanding.