GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, OR DO THEY?

[HairOfTheDog]

Chart doesn't tell all the real statistics. I know several friends who have guns, some even have 3 & 4, and they are not on that list, so . . . .

I'm pretty sure through out the country, the same holds true for people who own guns for "many years" (before strict registration laws) just for protection. And since they never take the gun(s) out of the house, those guns remain unregistered.

It goes without saying, criminals & many outlaws with guns are not on that chart either!

The estimate of 310 billion guns in the US in not based on registration, Cars.

There is no federal registry; the law prohibits such a registry being established. And, only two states have gun registration laws.

The estimate is instead based, in part, on a number of guns manufactured and sold in the US since way back when. Even if a gun gets transferred multiple times (legally or illegally), it's still just one gun.

The estimating methodology included several other factors as well, including citizen and dealer surveys across the United States to determine estimated average number of guns per household by state.

Some argue the estimate is too high. Some argue it's too low. I think it's probably as accurate as one can get given the intentional lack of centralized tracking.

If you're interested in how the estimate was derived: http://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cg...ban_facpub

There are guns manufactured in many countries other then the US of A, that find there way into this country with no accountability!! Adding to already hypothetical estimates in the first place.
Kinda waters down the chart, dont'cha think?

Yes, Cars, I already acknowledged that the number is an estimate, as did the researcher behind the chart.

There are allowances made for such factors as imported guns in the estimation model, but they are only educated guesses.

I'm not arguing that the estimate is an exact or accurate number or range, so I don't know why anyone is trying to argue that it's not.

By definition, an estimate is not exact. It's a result of all known/measurable data + educated guesses/derivatives in regards to immeasurable factors.

The arguments you all are tossing out apply to professional estimates in general, not just when it comes to gun statistics.

I understand if you reject the gun ownership statistic and/or or if you just reject estimates in general. That doesn't bother me in any way and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.

I would not be surprised if there were more than 310 million guns in circulation myself. But, personally, I'm okay with using the best available estimate as a baseline for discussion.

[F.U.]

That 310 mil # wouldn't surprise me a bit. Hell , between myself , my partner our shop & the gun shop down the street from ours, we have over 1500 guns. And we cant be the only ones with that kinda #'s.

[Duchess]

I'm perturbed that you have to register a car & not a gun. I may rant off & on all day about that.

[F.U.]

That too is just a money game Duch. Look at all the cash they make off of auto registration. Plus, gun ownership is a right according to our founding fathers. Auto ownership is a privilege. Privilege's cost.

[Duchess]

I'm trying to make sense of this but it's beyond my capabilities.

[F.U.]

Where the problem starts Duch is that people assume that our gov cares about its subjects, um ah I mean population. They don't ! They do care about cold hard cash and if there was a way to steal more of it from the subjects they will do everything they can to make it happen. The only roadblock in the gun game for them is that pesky little constitution and the NRA fighting them tooth and claw. So what the gov does is raise its voice as loud as the NRA does so it throws a scare in the gun lovers crowd, making them buy more more more. Then the gov, while it is at the state level, make all that sales tax. Plus then we gun people put in more hours at work so we can buy more firearm related items. That inturn makes the fed gov income tax $$$'s. Its all a money game and they are using one side against the other to increase revenue.

[Carsman]

That too is just a money game Duch. Look at all the cash they make off of auto registration. Plus, gun ownership is a right according to our founding fathers. Auto ownership is a privilege. Privilege's cost.

In my part of the world, not only do the cars need to be registered, the privilege of owing boats, any kind of trailers, motor homes, ski doos, also need to be registered. Not only for the initial registration fee, but mainly to pay a hefty "property tax" on those items, and that's "every year"!
(And that's in addition to a hefty "house" property tax!)

[HairOfTheDog]

I'm trying to make sense of this but it's beyond my capabilities.

You're not alone.

Polls indicate the 66% of US citizens support a federal gun registry, for obvious reasons. Polls also indicate that 70% of US citizens mistakenly believe that one already exists. http://smartgunlaws.org/registration-of-...y-summary/

Hawaii and the District of Columbia are the only two areas of the U.S. which require the registration of all firearms. The other states that F.U. posted have partial registration requirements.

IMO, it makes sense when you acknowledge that the NRA is the most powerful special interest group in the country. It incites fear in its members and other gun enthusiasts that the government is gonna come take their guns away whenever any reasonable gun safety/control legislation is suggested (thus some of them buy more guns and stock pile them).

It doesn't matter if the large majority of the population supports the legislation because the NRA owns a lot of politicians financially; mostly conservative Republicans. The NRA has a fuckload of money and a mission; it's very good at achieving its goals.

Registration could be free of charge and the NRA and extreme gun enthusiasts would still oppose it. They don't oppose it because of money. They oppose it because of fear of the government.

[F.U.]

That too is just a money game Duch. Look at all the cash they make off of auto registration. Plus, gun ownership is a right according to our founding fathers. Auto ownership is a privilege. Privilege's cost.

In my part of the world, not only do the cars need to be registered, the privilege of owing boats, any kind of trailers, motor homes, ski doos, also need to be registered. Not only for the initial registration fee, but mainly to pay a hefty "property tax" on those items, and that's "every year"!
(And that's in addition to a hefty "house" property tax!)

Same here Cars. If it travels or is pulled on the streets, water or dirt it needs a plate/registration yearly. Big bucks to be made, Big BIG bucks.

[F.U.]

One thing to remember though HotD. Without registration there can be no confiscation. And don't say it cant/wont happen, look at history around the world. It can and has happened. Ok, ok I know slippery slope again. bad me




ETA, since you mentioned stockpiling guns HotD. What do you consider stockpiling and what do you think is a reasonable number of guns and ammo to own? Just kinda wondering is all.

[Carsman]

Polls indicate this, polls indicate that, we need a poll to indicate the validity/accuracy of polls!

Polls not using absolute facts are skewed!

[HairOfTheDog]

^ Yeah, like I said, the NRA and extreme gun enthusiasts don't oppose registration due to money, as you and some others like to falsely claim.

It's like when you claim you're a responsible gun owner and then talk about leaving your loaded guns in reach of your grandchildren (though I think you later retracted that proud statement). Or, like when you claim that you're a law-abiding gun owner and then passionately proclaim that you'd proudly break any law that restricted gun ownership and take on the government. And more.

There's no need for bullshit here, though it's sometimes funny to read.

If there were no costs associated with gun registration, you would still oppose it because you fear and distrust the government, even when it assures you that it has no intention of taking your guns away and instead wants to increase public safety by keeping guns out of the wrong hands. That's the bottom line, right?

[HairOfTheDog]

Polls indicate this, polls indicate that, we need a poll to indicate the validity/accuracy of polls!

Polls not using absolute facts are skewed!

Cars, it's really not confusing.

Polls and surveys are the means by which public opinion is measured. That's just a fact. I cited the polls and they're valid ones.

I will continue to use estimates, polls, and surveys by credible sources because they're useful for quantification; that's why they exist. No one is arguing your point that they don't represent an exact science or render 100% accurate results.

I understand that you're standing your ground here this morning in staunch protest of estimates, polls, and surveys!! No problem, mister.

[F.U.]

I never said I oppose registration because of the cash. I have always said its because of the , first registration then confiscation idea.

When a government no longer trusts its citizens its time to no longer trust that gov. They talk out of both side of their mouths and there is no way to believe them when they say they don't want to take our guns away. First its register, then its there is no need for semiauto rifles, so they take them. Then its there is no need for semiauto handguns, then they take them. And the snowball rolls down the hill until me are left defenseless. And don't say it cant happen. I read the comments at the brady bunches pages and many there admit that there is no need for firearms in todays society here in the usa and want them banned.

[F.U.]

Polls are not accurate . You can get any answer you want depending on where you take that poll. Lets use sports. Wanna hear that Green Bay is the best team, take that poll in Wisconsin. Raiders? California. Its that simple

[Maggot]

I really don't fear the government, its distrust. What the government likes to do is make law abiding citizens pay the price of neglect by a few that are brain dead. Instead of targeting the real problem they go for the soft target.

Having neglected programs through schools and teaching children respect for guns by instituting scholastic achievement, society has demonized guns and the reason we have this right to keep them without infringement.
Instead of an atmosphere of fear, children and young adults should have a well rounded appreciation and respect for the tool. Just like a person would not jump into a running woodchipper through common sense, they should take the same precautions when holding a loaded weapon. Either one is a learned experience.

Education is the answer.

[HairOfTheDog]

ETA, since you mentioned stockpiling guns HotD. What do you consider stockpiling and what do you think is a reasonable number of guns and ammo to own? Just kinda wondering is all.

I don't care how many legally-owned guns anybody keeps, so long as they are responsible with them and practice gun safety at all times. I've said that no less than 100 times in this thread.

Still, you (and some others, to a lesser extent) automatically go into defensive emotional mode whenever I or anyone expresses support of increased gun safety/control regulation. It becomes "us" vs. "them" every time. While it's amusing in the context of a forum board, it's an irrational reaction -- fear does that to people.

I'm not "gun shy". I'm not afraid of guns. I'm not ignorant in regards to gun laws. I know a fair amount about government and politics. I don't believe things are true just because they're in print (nor do I insist they aren't true just because they're not in print). And, I don't wanna take any of your guns away. It doesn't matter how many times bullshit claims and insinuations to the contrary are tossed out, they're equally false every time.

The only things I'd like to see change in terms of gun control are (1) everyone without exception be required to pass a background check before acquiring a gun, and (2) every gun owner without exception be required to keep unlocked loaded guns out of reach of children. Currently a handful of states have universal background check laws, and a handful have child access prevention laws which make gun negligence a criminal offense. I think that should be the case in every state and would support federal laws to that effect. All other gun control/safety policies can be left to the states, IMO.

[F.U.]

1, I agree with, with the exception of family members. 2, I could get use to. If that was where it would stop, no big deal, but we all know that is not where it would stop.

[HairOfTheDog]

You don't speak for me, F.U.

But, again, I understand that YOU'RE coming from a place of fear.

I get it.

[F.U.]

Not a place of fear, just a place with eyes wide open.