GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, OR DO THEY?

[Jimbone]

I really don't understand people who are careless or so cavalier with their firearms.

My guns and ammunition are all secure and locked. I'm the only one who has access to them, and unless someone brings power tools, an acetylene torch, and some patience they're not getting them.

I would not support anything that makes me responsible no matter how someone got my firearm. If I've taken reasonable measures (gun safe, lock box) to secure my property, and someone breaks in (into the house and/or car, and into a safe/lockbox) to get it, I shouldn't be held liable for any part of that.

However depending on how it's worded or implemented, I'd likely support a legal charge for someone who negligently stores firearms (i.e., leaves loaded firearms in plain sight, or otherwise accessible to any person).

[SIXFOOTERsez]

I really don't understand people who are careless or so cavalier with their firearms.

My guns and ammunition are all secure and locked. I'm the only one who has access to them, and unless someone brings power tools, an acetylene torch, and some patience they're not getting them.

I would not support anything that makes me responsible no matter how someone got my firearm. If I've taken reasonable measures (gun safe, lock box) to secure my property, and someone breaks in (into the house and/or car, and into a safe/lockbox) to get it, I shouldn't be held liable for any part of that.

However depending on how it's worded or implemented, I'd likely support a legal charge for someone who negligently stores firearms (i.e., leaves loaded firearms in plain sight, or otherwise accessible to any person).

I agree, if you have taken the reasonable steps to protect your weapons you should not be held responsible for anyone taking extraordinary steps to steal them.

[HairOfTheDog]

If gun owners were prosecuted whenever one of their guns was used in a crime, regardless of how it was obtained and used, I think MS's implication is right; that it would likely encourage more gun owners to be responsible and safely secure/store their firearms. But, it wouldn't always be appropriate, in my opinion.

If someone securely locks their firearm(s) and it's stolen, the gun owner should not be held accountable for what the thief does with it IF the gun owner reports it stolen immediately.

If a family member takes/steals a weapon and there's evidence that the weapon wasn't adequately secured, the irresponsible gun owner should be held legally accountable for that gun being used in a crime. This type of case is more difficult to prove though. Dad says he locked up his pistol and somehow 16-year-old Johnnie got a hold of it and robbed a liquor store before dad had an opportunity to notice it was missing, for example. Is dad telling the truth, or did he allow/afford Johnnie access? It would need to be investigated, not taken at face value, to determine if charges are merited.

Leave your firearm unsecured and a toddler gets a hold of it and shoots himself or someone else, you should be prosecuted for negligence (at the least).

That's how I feel about it. But, many states don't have laws requiring safe storage or reporting theft of firearms, unfortunately.

[Midwest Spy]

I said charge the gun owner the same as the offender, and then conduct a trial.

If it’s obvious that the gun owner took extraordinary measures to secure the gun, and a safe or a locked box were broken into, then , to me, that would earn that gun owner an acquittal.

If, however, gun owner had guns under lock and key, and key was taken to open the safe/lock box, that would earn a guilty verdict.

In other words, disturbed teenager knows where dad keeps the key to the safe and takes it.

Guilty, buddy.

[HairOfTheDog]

I understand your line of thinking, MS. I just don't think people should be charged or prosecuted if the investigation determines they didn't break any laws and did everything possible to store their firearms securely.

[SIXFOOTERsez]

I agree HOTD, I do not see anything positive coming from "Charge Them All and let the Trial Sort Them Out"
There should be clear evidence of carelessness in securing the weapon before charges can even be filed

[HairOfTheDog]

Las Vegas Mass Shooting - Update

The owner of the hotel from which a gunman carried out the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history confirmed earlier this week that Paddock had used the freight elevator and the assistance of a bellman to get all of his bags to the room, which was reportedly not a 'perk' or unusual.

It's also been confirmed that Paddock checked into the hotel on 9/25, not 9/ 28 (as LE originally believed).

And, LE told the public that they'd reviewed casino surveillance which captured Paddock on 200 occasions and that he was never in the company or speaking with another individual.

[HairOfTheDog]

Today, the hotel ownership provided a new version of the timeline, suggesting there was no time for hotel staff to warn police.

Stephen Paddock opened fire on Mandalay Bay hotel security guard Jesus Campos and the crowd attending a concert nearby at the same time or within 40 seconds of each other, MGM Resorts International said in a statement.

That account differed from the updated timeline Las Vegas police provided on Monday, when they said Campos had been shot six minutes before Paddock opened fire on the crowd and killed 58 people on Oct. 1. MGM said on Tuesday the revised police timeline might not be accurate.

Clark County Sheriff Joseph Lombardo, who oversees the police department, on Wednesday defended the speed of the police response in an interview with the Las Vegas CBS television affiliate.

"No matter what that timeline was, the response was as quick as possible. I don't think the response could have been any faster," Lombardo said in a video posted on the station's LasVegasNow.com website.

The revised timeline police provided on Monday had raised new questions, including why Paddock ceased firing on concertgoers once he began, and whether hotel security and police coordinated as well as first believed.

MGM, which owns the Mandalay Bay hotel, said the 9:59 p.m. time when police said Campos was shot was derived from a hotel report created manually after the fact without the benefit of information the hotel now has.

"We are now confident that the time stated in this report is not accurate," MGM said. "We know that shots were being fired at the festival lot at the same time as, or within 40 seconds after, the time Jesus Campos first reported that shots were fired over the radio."

Las Vegas police officers were with armed hotel security officers in the building when Campos first reported that shots were fired over the radio, MGM said. Both groups immediately responded to the 32^nd floor.

"We will continue to work with law enforcement as we have from the first moments of this tragedy as they work toward developing an accurate timeline," MGM said.

Sheriff Lombardo said yesterday that he'll be presenting a more comprehensive timeline tomorrow, Friday.

Ref: http://www.businessinsider.com/r-update-...&r=UK&IR=T

[ZEROSPHERES]

This is a video worth viewing.

Good Science
Good Math
Good Ballistics and data
Good analysis up to the point where all that diverged from his pre formed opinion.

Six, I am asking you to view another video. This time between 1:29 and 1:36. Tell me what you can deduce about the rapid gun shots. They sound fully automatic to me. I figure a bump stop would sound less constant, less rapid and may start slow and build in speed instead of the type of sounds in the video.

[SIXFOOTERsez]

I can't even say for sure thats gunfire, it could be some equipment or something else.

[Midwest Spy]

Man, I sure hope you're kidding MS.

All of that is pure conspiracy theory nuttiness based on no facts or even circumstantial evidence -- just something you fathomed in your head.

There is likely, however, plenty of evidence to negate your attempted persecution of Jesus. There are surveillance videos all over casinos, which would capture some or all of the following: Jesus working his job when the shooting was going down, Jesus responding when he got the call from a hotel guest about shots being fired from a room in the vicinity, Jesus being shot through the hotel door, Jesus clearing guests of their rooms, etc.

Too bad he wasn't inconveniently killed in the process -- that would really bolster your baseless theory.

Hey HotD...

I see Jesus Campos has gone missing.

If I end up right on this one, I want pics from you, Sal and Duchess PM’ed to my in-box

[HairOfTheDog]

I can’t speak for Big Sal or Duchess, but if Jesus Campos was an accomplice to Paddock I’ll gladly give you pics MS.

I don’t know why Campos chose to stay out of the public eye, but there’s nothing that makes me believe he was involved and lots that makes me confident he wasn’t.

Anyway, the sheriff was very emotional and defensive today. He said there is no incompetence or conspiracy involving LE and/or the FBI and he’s offended by all the online speculation.

He also confirmed that yesterday’s MGM statement was correct. Campos was not shot at 9:59. That’s when Campos responded to the door alarm. It was several minutes later that he was shot and immediately radioed for help. He was shot only seconds before Paddock started firing at the crowd (not just after the mass shooting and not 6 minutes before, as the sheriff previously believed).

[Midwest Spy]

I just read the ‘new’ timeline and there is nothing in the timeline that would debunk my wild-hair theory that Campos could’ve been an accomplice.

I’m very interested to see how this unfolds.

Don’t forget HotD, I’m the guy who almost instantly posited the theory that the pilot of MH370 intentionally crashed the plane in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

[HairOfTheDog]

Well, if your wild hair theory turns out to be right....I’ll apologize, compliment your intuition, and fill your in-box with pictures of my feet or something.

[Midwest Spy]

Well, if your wild hair theory turns out to be right....I’ll apologize, compliment your intuition, and fill your in-box with pictures of my feet or something.

From the head down, laying on your back, looking towards your toes?

As long as there are some mountains in the pics, we’re all good.

Just living up to your perv expectations.

I wouldn’t t want to disappoint.

[HairOfTheDog]

Here’s a summary of sheriff Lombardo’s press conference today.

https://cbsnews.com/amp/news/las-vegas-p...e-updates/

[HairOfTheDog]

I just read the ‘new’ timeline and there is nothing in the timeline that would debunk my wild-hair theory that Campos could’ve been an accomplice.

I’m very interested to see how this unfolds.

I'm curious too.

In regards to Jesus...........If I was booked for Sean Hannity and then my employer and the police started publicly contradicting each other with my name tossed all over the place, I'd back out and lay low too.

Anyway, I'll play MS. In your hair-brained theory:

1. Why did Jesus get shot?
2. If you think he got shot because Paddock turned on him without warning, why did Jesus radio for help right away?
3. Why did Jesus warn the maintenance worker to get down and stay clear when he showed up shortly after Jesus was shot?
4. Why did Jesus help police and cooperate fully?

[Duchess]

In general, I'd question the credibility of anyone who associated themselves with Hannity/Fox News. They are not a legitimate news source.

[Midwest Spy]

1. Jesus obviously shot himself (non-life threatening) to complete the ruse. They either had a joint suicide pact and Campos backed out OR Campos shot Paddock.

2. The gunfire ‘turned toward him’ was also just an act. It gives him an excuse to still be up there on the 32^nd floor. I’d like to know if he was the lone security guard that night. If so, he wouldn’t have to worry about a fellow security guard getting there and foiling the plot. Their only worry after beginning was when would the first cops arrive on their floor.

3. This is something I’m unaware of. You’re saying another person was on the 32^nd floor? OR, did Campos radio someone and tell them to stay off the floor?

Anyway, my theory definitely explains why the shooting only lasted 10 minutes or so. Campos wanted to get out of there alive and unsuspected, prior to LE arriving.

4. His assistance with LE just seals the deal. Cooperative, not wanting to leave, he would never be suspected of being an accomplice.

The more I think about it, the stairway door being opened was actually the beginning of everything. It allowed Campos to be there in the first place.

Knowing what I know about Paddock after reading his bio, he was meticulous, smart, etc.

He may actually even have known he was going to commit suicide and Campos was going to escape just to ‘pull off’ a crime of this magnitude.

[Duchess]

The more I think about it, the stairway door being opened was actually the beginning of everything.

I don't understand the part about the stairway door being opened. Can you elaborate?