(11-29-2014, 11:32 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I have reason to question why an assessment wasn't made before fatal shots were fired in this case -- I've watched the video and it happened very quickly -- in under 2 seconds.

Eggsactly. The speed in which this happened is mind boggling as is the fact that they practically ran the kid over as opposed to parking the car in such a way that they could give their instructions to "drop the weapon" with slightly more clarity. It would take me longer than 2 seconds to process the request and drop my fucking purse if a cop demanded I do that. The kid was probably briefly paralyzed/shocked to have a cop car almost on top of him--2 seconds is not enough time to think clearly under those circumstances.

The whole thing was fucked up.

There seems to be a false belief that more and more officers are getting killed in the line of duty every year to justify this hyper vigilance on the part of the police. That is not the case:

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fata.../year.html

I don't know the policy about approaching someone believed to be armed with a gun in a public place. It could be that driving up to him was part of their training. Tamir did walk towards the car and Tamir reportedly did pull up his shirt and reached for the gun in his waist band (can't see that from the video).

It's undisputed that it happened very quickly, in under 2 seconds, which is of concern to many. But, that doesn't mean a review of all of the circumstances won't show that it was a justified shooting according to policy and given the information that the officers had at the time.

Anyway, I really wanna know if the investigation into the Tamir Rice shooting/killing will show that the officers should have been provided more information by 911 dispatch and whether it is believed that it would have made a difference.

I also wanna know why the officers didn't attempt to aid Tamir after the shooting, even though Cleveland police are trained to do so. The Chief said he doesn't know why they didn't and that all of the officers' actions are under investigation. I think it's good that the public is interested in why/how this happened; every case should be an opportunity to determine if improvements can be made to better ensure and protect public safety without casualties and that's more likely to happen with more eyes watching.

It's estimated that it will take 90 days to complete the internal review/investigation before the case is handed off to the grand jury. I won't be surprised if an independent agency is brought in to oversee the internal review; there are a lot eyes on this one and mistrust of the police.

The toy guns and bebe/pellet guns these days look very real. It's a shame that kids (not just black kids) are getting killed for playing aggressively with toy guns in public. It's kinda odd that outlawing realistic looking toy guns is being discussed because they are too easily mistaken for real guns, which are legal to open carry in the same area.

I feel like I can understand both points of view. It was so fast yet to not be fast could mean your death.

(11-29-2014, 07:00 PM)Duchess Wrote: I feel like I can understand both points of view. It was so fast yet to not be fast could mean your death.

I'm looking at it from both angles as well.

Whether this was a justified shooting -- even though the officers' presumptions/perceptions regarding threat to their lives were clearly wrong -- can't be known yet. There are too many pieces and circumstances that need to be investigated/evaluated, IMO.

It's gonna be a long wait for the internal nvestigation and grand jury hearings to wrap up.

(11-29-2014, 07:08 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: It's gonna be a long wait for the internal nvestigation and grand jury hearings to wrap up.

...and boy do we know how tedious THAT can be.

I'm anxious for some action in the case of the hillbillies kidnapping, raping and murdering the pretty blonde. The waiting in so many of these cases is frustrating at times. Jodi would be a good example.

A 12 year old with a gun, can kill a cop dead (and you) just the same as a 20 year old with a gun can. Dead is dead just the same. The end.

(Cops put their lives on the line every day, day after day, they don't get paid enough! Most leave their widows, & kids poor when they get killed by a gun carrying kid/man/woman.)

Meh, go back to the chart I posted Cars. All things considered, very few officers lose their lives in the line of duty.

It takes more than 2 seconds to say the words (even once) "drop your weapon". By my count, that's 2-3 seconds right there. From the looks of the video, they didn't give the kid (and I don't care if he was a kid or an adult) even a moment to process what they were saying. Not to mention even a few feet of distance.

Major police over reaction and shame on that dispatcher for not giving them more of the information provided by the 911 caller. I wonder what he thinks about what happened now.

(11-29-2014, 09:54 PM)username Wrote: Meh, go back to the chart I posted Cars. All things considered, very few officers lose their lives in the line of duty.

It takes more than 2 seconds to say the words (even once) "drop your weapon". By my count, that's 2-3 seconds right there. From the looks of the video, they didn't give the kid (and I don't care if he was a kid or an adult) even a moment to process what they were saying. Not to mention even a few feet of distance.

Major police over reaction and shame on that dispatcher for not giving them more of the information provided by the 911 caller. I wonder what he thinks about what happened now.

Wow, that chart is showing drastically low number of cop killings. The chart I saw a few weeks ago, showed 794, but I can't find it right now, I'll keep looking for it.

(11-29-2014, 11:51 PM)Carsman Wrote:

(11-29-2014, 09:54 PM)username Wrote: Meh, go back to the chart I posted Cars. All things considered, very few officers lose their lives in the line of duty.

It takes more than 2 seconds to say the words (even once) "drop your weapon". By my count, that's 2-3 seconds right there. From the looks of the video, they didn't give the kid (and I don't care if he was a kid or an adult) even a moment to process what they were saying. Not to mention even a few feet of distance.

Major police over reaction and shame on that dispatcher for not giving them more of the information provided by the 911 caller. I wonder what he thinks about what happened now.

Wow, that chart is showing drastically low number of cop killings. The chart I saw a few weeks ago, showed 794, but I can't find it right now, I'll keep looking for it.

Ok, the 794 was since O took office. (Still too many)

If you add the numbers up, more died under Bush than Obama. The numbers trend up and down but I think people have been led to believe that cops are dying in record numbers these days. They aren't.

(11-30-2014, 12:48 AM)username Wrote: If you add the numbers up, more died under Bush than Obama. The numbers trend up and down but I think people have been led to believe that cops are dying in record numbers these days. They aren't.

The inference of the chart that got me was showing where O's priorities and allegiance lie!

Yes, the President wants all cops dead. He doesn't care about them any more than George Bush cares about black people.

(11-29-2014, 11:32 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I've spent a fair share of my life living smack dab in urban areas with high crime, Kid.

Yes, I'm fully aware of your location, sweetheart. How many times have you been shot at? How many times have you been harassed for simply doing your job? How many little gang-bangers do you deal with on a day-to-day basis? How many of your coworkers have been killed for simply doing their job? How many murder/drive-by scenes have you witnessed personally, and the aftermath?

Yup, you can live there all you want, but dealing with the shit every-fucking-day is a different story.

(11-29-2014, 11:32 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: The cops were not being fired upon and they were aware that the person they were approaching had not fired a gun at all.

Ahh..so in your world, the police should wait until bullets are being shot at them before returning fire...just sit back and hope the assailant misses with the first few shots, eh?

Don't get me wrong here...I'm not all gung-ho pro cop....but I feel for these guys, and the split decisions they have to make...and a lot of the time, they are in no-win situations.

(11-30-2014, 07:09 AM)Duchess Wrote:

Yes, the President wants all cops dead. He doesn't care about them any more than George Bush cares about black people.

Apparently seems you missed it also.

O sent no delegates to "any cops" (white or black) funerals, but sent "3 delegates" to a "black thugs" funeral! WTF?

(11-30-2014, 09:46 AM)Carsman Wrote: Apparently seems you missed it also.

No, I didn't miss it. I understood perfectly.

(11-30-2014, 09:19 AM)thekid65 Wrote: Yes, I'm fully aware of your location, sweetheart. How many times have you been shot at? How many times have you been harassed for simply doing your job? How many little gang-bangers do you deal with on a day-to-day basis? How many of your coworkers have been killed for simply doing their job? How many murder/drive-by scenes have you witnessed personally, and the aftermath?

I think you must have forgotten the opening line to your opening post in this thread, muffin.

You wrote this: "Those that think the officer acted to hastily have obviously not spent enough time in the crime ridden areas of larger cities."

Your "obvious" observation was wrong. Since I am, in fact, questioning whether the officer responded too hastily, I addressed your original admonishing comment about my qualifications to do so.

Nobody here needs to be Kid65-qualified to question and talk about police action. But, since I like you so much and all, I responded anyhow.

And, yes, I have seen kids with guns in Los Angeles, Long Beach, and San Francisco at different points. Yes, I've encountered gang-bangers. No, I've never been a cop (nor a gang-banger, nor have I been shot mistakenly by a cop...). Beyond that, I don't feel compelled to share my personal experiences with crime and don't think it's relevant here anyway.

And the song remains the same -- I don't need to be Kid65-qualified to "come back and talk" about this case, question the cops/toy manufacturers/911 communications or anything else. If you consider that "sitting back in judgment", imagine me reclining with my feet up and a gavel next to my coffee cup -- or sue me.

(11-30-2014, 09:19 AM)thekid65 Wrote:

(11-29-2014, 11:32 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: The cops were not being fired upon and they were aware that the person they were approaching had not fired a gun at all.

Ahh..so in your world, the police should wait until bullets are being shot at them before returning fire...just sit back and hope the assailant misses with the first few shots, eh?

No. I don't think that, which is why I never said it.

I said the police weren't responding to "shots fired" or "shooting in progress". Perhaps if the officers had been informed that the eyewitness who called into 911 figured that the male was a juvenile with a fake gun, they would have approached the situation differently. Perhaps not. It's a legitimate question.

In any case, Tamir was shot less than 2 seconds from the time the officers rolled up on him and I question whether the officers rushed to action without appropriately assessing the situation. It's possible. I'm interested in what the investigation reveals on that front.

(11-30-2014, 09:19 AM)thekid65 Wrote: Don't get me wrong here...I'm not all gung-ho pro cop....but I feel for these guys, and the split decisions they have to make...and a lot of the time, they are in no-win situations.

Yes, I can see by your posts that you are emotional and going off general feelings rather than specific case facts and logic, which is also an interesting view point to consider.

I understand your general sentiments and don't disagree with them. But, I wouldn't sit back and judge you even if you were all gung-ho pro cop.

(11-30-2014, 09:52 AM)Duchess Wrote:

(11-30-2014, 09:46 AM)Carsman Wrote: Apparently seems you missed it also.

No, I didn't miss it. I understood perfectly.

Then I missed you, I stand corrected.

Why would a 911 dispatcher tell cops "It's probably not real?" Saying they should have is ridiculous. You tell the officers the known facts and let them assess the situation without pre-conceived assumptions about possibilities. 911 dispatchers and random civilians calling 911 certainly aren't qualified to determine whether a gun is real or "probably fake." If it's unknown, it's up to the officers to make that assessment. Their job is to walk into the situation considering all the possibilities, ranging from '100% false reports about innocent kid' to 'Kid on rampage with oozie, 19 dead including both of you if you get it wrong.'

Now, was the assessment done correctly? Not in my book. I wouldn't pull up on the kid that fast or close without shots being fired and dead bodies lying around. The cops put themselves in a dangerous situation with how they responded, and the rook in the passenger side shot first and asked questions later. The driver should never have put him in that position. At the same time, I don't think they're guilty of murder. That kid/guardians shoulders a lot of the blame for his death especially if he didn't drop the weapon when cops instructed him to.

The most important part tho, is that none of this should surprise you people. I already told you... Cleveland if FULL OF ASSHOLES and none of them are smart enough to put a square peg in a square hole.

(12-01-2014, 01:15 AM)Cutz Wrote: Why would a 911 dispatcher tell cops "It's probably not real?" Saying they should have is ridiculous. You tell the officers the known facts and let them assess the situation without pre-conceived assumptions about possibilities. 911 dispatchers and random civilians calling 911 certainly aren't qualified to determine whether a gun is real or "probably fake." If it's unknown, it's up to the officers to make that assessment. Their job is to walk into the situation considering all the possibilities, ranging from '100% false reports about innocent kid' to 'Kid on rampage with oozie, 19 dead including both of you if you get it wrong.'

The 911 dispatcher is just a conduit relating case facts communicated to her by the caller to the officers. The eyewitness caller who was lodging a non-shooting complaint provided a description of the scene and the male. He specifically mentioned that the gun was probably fake and he didn't know if it was real, 3 separate times.

IMO, the fact that the caller wasn't sure if the pistol was real would be something the dispatcher should pass on to the responding officers because, as you said, it's the officers' job to assess the situation based on all of the information available. If they'd been given that info in this case, it might have figured into their assessment regarding how to approach the male, which could have affected how the male responded and prevented a boy from being shot to death at the park. For me, that's about as compelling a reason as possible for a 911 dispatcher not to withhold information provided by the caller/witness -- withholding it limits the officers' perspective.

Having said that, I don't know if there is set policy and rationale regarding what 911 dispatchers should omit when passing eyewitness information to responding officers. Maybe the 911 operator was following procedure.

I searched for 911 dispatch protocols, but came up empty. If anyone has first hand experience in the field or a reference link, I'd be interested in learning more about it.

The Investigation / The COD

It’s unclear whether Tamir said anything to the officers before he was shot, (Deputy Chief) Tomba said.

Every aspect of the incident is under investigation, Tomba said, including why the dispatcher never told officers that the gun could be fake, and why Officer Garmback pulled the cruiser up so close to the armed boy.

Police said the distance between Loehmann and Tamir was under 10 feet when shots were fired, though the medical examiner will be able to give an exact distance. On Monday, the medical examiner ruled Tamir’s death a homicide and said his death was caused by a gunshot wound to the torso with injuries to major vessels, intestines and pelvis.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national...-1.2025132
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This shooting incident will probably help those pushing for expedited nationwide adoption of police body cams with audio.

It would be extremely helpful if the investigators looking into the shooting had a recording of what transpired in the officers' car when the decision was made to roll up so closely to Tamir, and very helpful to hear what Officer Loehmann said to Tamir and what Tamir said back (if anything). A close-up visual recording of Tamir's motions in conjunction with the officer's reported verbal commands would, of course, be extremely valuable in determining what happened and why and might also decrease the time and cost of the investigation.

ETA: Cleveland PD body cam push: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf..._call.html