THE 'WHO'S TO BLAME?' THREAD

[sally]

Based on that article there is no possible way to determine if the mother is to blame or not. Instead you've made every stupid assumption from the kid being bi-polar to the mother allowing the television to raise her. Oh and the best one, the mother didn't use super human force to yank her up by her hair in time. How do you know that she wasn't about to do that or how long they were in the road before being hit. It could have only been a matter of seconds.

But thank you for all the parenting tips. You should start charging a fee.

[Duchess]

Actually, it's enough to know that the silly little shit sat her ass down in the middle of a freakin' road in the dark. It's probably just as well she won't have the chance to breed. She wouldn't have done that if she didn't feel she couldn't get away with it. It probably wasn't the first time she showed her ass in public.

[Duchess]

If your kids are doing shit like that, they are ruling the roost, not you. That's a general "you".

[sally]

Actually, it's enough to know that the silly little shit sat her ass down in the middle of a freakin' road in the dark. It's probably just as well she won't have the chance to breed. She wouldn't have done that if she didn't feel she couldn't get away with it. It probably wasn't the first time she showed her ass in public.

I'm not arguing that she was a dumb ass at that moment, but you have know way of knowing if that was a one time thing or not. Also kids will do dumb things regardless of knowing that they won't get away with it and there will be consequences to be paid. I know, I was a kid once.

Have a sleepover once with a bunch of 13 year old girls and see how retarded they can act when they're all together. It's unbelievable.

[Duchess]

I regret commenting on her breeding. It was dumb.

[blueberryhill]

Children need guidance from the day they are born you do not attempt to change their attitude when they are teenagers you start when they are born. An adult cannot be lazy and let the television raise their kids. Morality and respect are learned not imbedded in DNA.

Kids can sometimes be taught the best of morals and respect and that still isn't a cure all for the "perfect" kid. Witness the many children of clergy whose children rebel against all those morals and values.....And I disagree, some components of personality can have a genetic origin, i.e., if you study the childhood of sociopaths or psychopaths, their "symptoms" usually start in childhood regardless of environment. Many mental health disorders (including personality traits) are inherited...Who among us have plopped our kid down in front of a TV when we are extra busy...If they don't watch TV, then parent has to engage child in some activity. Today, usually both parents work, and don't have the time to do this, sadly......Around the age of 11 to 12, your child starts to pull away from parents and that is when their peers take over in being the largest influence in their life. God forbid, but they start hanging out with the "wrong" crowd....Doesn't mean you are a bad parent, just that their are too many outside influences in today's world, video games, some of which are very violent, all teenagers have smart phones and access to computers which can put them in harm's way....You are a good person and have passed on your values to this child, but suddenly they go off in another direction....I have seen many frustrated parents completely at a loss on what to do. They ask for help from resources in the community, but one office refers them to another office and so on and they never get any help. This would be the extreme...
In this case, extremely poor judgment was used but when dealing with a crisis (everything is a crisis for a 13 year old), you aren't thinking clearly. This woman is in deep pain from the loss of her daughter.
If you have the perfect child, then please give yourself a pat on the back and tell us your secret....again, I would guess it would be the luck of the draw....You cannot automatically assume that a "bad" child is the fault of the parents....too many outside influences plus genetics which decides final destiny of child.

[Duchess]

It sounds like raising kids is a crap shoot and in general a shit ton of work, worry and heartache.

[FAHQTOO]

For Christs sake...we all fucking know kids do stupid shit and throw temper tantrums, but in my 49 years, I have yet to hear of a kid, at the ripe old age of 13, getting out of the fucking car and sitting their fat ass in the middle of the road over something so stupid. We're not talking about a 3 yr old here.
No one ever said at the beginning of the thread there were any facts other than the little info we have. In my OPINION, she was a spoiled brat and now she's dead because of her ridiculous actions.

[blueberryhill]

For Christs sake...we all fucking know kids do stupid shit and throw temper tantrums, but in my 49 years, I have yet to hear of a kid, at the ripe old age of 13, getting out of the fucking car and sitting their fat ass in the middle of the road over something so stupid. We're not talking about a 3 yr old here.
No one ever said at the beginning of the thread there were any facts other than the little info we have. In my OPINION, she was a spoiled brat and now she's dead because of her ridiculous actions.

Well, yes, it was very stupid thing to do, but 13 year old kids do stupid things. I guess the point I make is, I never could have been an effective counselor for 19 years to adolescents (age 16 thru 21). I had to be non judgmental and I am proud to say, many of these kids (from broken homes, high school drop-outs, alcohol and drug abuse, lower income families, etc.) wrote to me and thanked me for the influence I made in their lives....They drove me crazy at times and I did take an early retirement because I was beginning to like my job less and less....I have seen it all, and very little was good about the backgrounds of these kids. Some rose above their backgrounds, but a certain percentage did not. Some were killed as a result of alcohol abuse. We had a large population from the Sioux Nation in South Dakota, and that was always a challenge....everyone is so quick to assign blame to everyone.....I just hope people who think like you never sit on my jury if I am convicted of something.....I want someone with an open mind until they hear the evidence in my case.

[Maggot]

Children need guidance from the day they are born you do not attempt to change their attitude when they are teenagers you start when they are born. An adult cannot be lazy and let the television raise their kids. Morality and respect are learned not imbedded in DNA.

Kids can sometimes be taught the best of morals and respect and that still isn't a cure all for the "perfect" kid. Witness the many children of clergy whose children rebel against all those morals and values.....And I disagree, some components of personality can have a genetic origin, i.e., if you study the childhood of sociopaths or psychopaths, their "symptoms" usually start in childhood regardless of environment. Many mental health disorders (including personality traits) are inherited...Who among us have plopped our kid down in front of a TV when we are extra busy...If they don't watch TV, then parent has to engage child in some activity. Today, usually both parents work, and don't have the time to do this, sadly......Around the age of 11 to 12, your child starts to pull away from parents and that is when their peers take over in being the largest influence in their life. God forbid, but they start hanging out with the "wrong" crowd....Doesn't mean you are a bad parent, just that their are too many outside influences in today's world, video games, some of which are very violent, all teenagers have smart phones and access to computers which can put them in harm's way....You are a good person and have passed on your values to this child, but suddenly they go off in another direction....I have seen many frustrated parents completely at a loss on what to do. They ask for help from resources in the community, but one office refers them to another office and so on and they never get any help. This would be the extreme...
In this case, extremely poor judgment was used but when dealing with a crisis (everything is a crisis for a 13 year old), you aren't thinking clearly. This woman is in deep pain from the loss of her daughter.
If you have the perfect child, then please give yourself a pat on the back and tell us your secret....again, I would guess it would be the luck of the draw....You cannot automatically assume that a "bad" child is the fault of the parents....too many outside influences plus genetics which decides final destiny of child.

How many children do you have?

[Maggot]

For Christs sake...we all fucking know kids do stupid shit and throw temper tantrums, but in my 49 years, I have yet to hear of a kid, at the ripe old age of 13, getting out of the fucking car and sitting their fat ass in the middle of the road over something so stupid. We're not talking about a 3 yr old here.
No one ever said at the beginning of the thread there were any facts other than the little info we have. In my OPINION, she was a spoiled brat and now she's dead because of her ridiculous actions.

You are right. She should have been locked into a carseat.

[blueberryhill]

Children need guidance from the day they are born you do not attempt to change their attitude when they are teenagers you start when they are born. An adult cannot be lazy and let the television raise their kids. Morality and respect are learned not imbedded in DNA.

Kids can sometimes be taught the best of morals and respect and that still isn't a cure all for the "perfect" kid. Witness the many children of clergy whose children rebel against all those morals and values.....And I disagree, some components of personality can have a genetic origin, i.e., if you study the childhood of sociopaths or psychopaths, their "symptoms" usually start in childhood regardless of environment. Many mental health disorders (including personality traits) are inherited...Who among us have plopped our kid down in front of a TV when we are extra busy...If they don't watch TV, then parent has to engage child in some activity. Today, usually both parents work, and don't have the time to do this, sadly......Around the age of 11 to 12, your child starts to pull away from parents and that is when their peers take over in being the largest influence in their life. God forbid, but they start hanging out with the "wrong" crowd....Doesn't mean you are a bad parent, just that their are too many outside influences in today's world, video games, some of which are very violent, all teenagers have smart phones and access to computers which can put them in harm's way....You are a good person and have passed on your values to this child, but suddenly they go off in another direction....I have seen many frustrated parents completely at a loss on what to do. They ask for help from resources in the community, but one office refers them to another office and so on and they never get any help. This would be the extreme...
In this case, extremely poor judgment was used but when dealing with a crisis (everything is a crisis for a 13 year old), you aren't thinking clearly. This woman is in deep pain from the loss of her daughter.
If you have the perfect child, then please give yourself a pat on the back and tell us your secret....again, I would guess it would be the luck of the draw....You cannot automatically assume that a "bad" child is the fault of the parents....too many outside influences plus genetics which decides final destiny of child.

How many children do you have?

I don't like your tone, mister. I have mentioned on here several times about children and 5 grandchildren and I am not going to respond to you with that tone. I also have a Master's degree in Child and Family Development/Counseling and was a Psychiatric counselor with the Government......since you seem to be questioning my opinions/credentials.
Plus, I made straight A's for you information.....so there. Plus, I was on the Dean's Honor Roll.... P.S. I have mentioned also some problems with one of my grandsons. I don't want to repeat it, but our family has certainly been put to the test....bad parenting, I don't think so, however, a divorce caused devastating things to happen.

[Maggot]

Well I think its time for some anger management and possibly some government issued drugs. Missy.

[blueberryhill]

Well I think its time for some anger management and possibly some government issued drugs. Missy.

Well, Maggs, I am not the one on here who is ranting, raving, and judging everyone...I try not to jump the gun before I know the facts....
As for the drugs, yeah, I'll just borrow some of your drugs.
Correction to a previous post: I have 6 grandchildren, not 5, 4 boys, and two girls....
Additionally, I did groups on anger management and if you need any tips, just holler....anything to help a fellow Mocker.
I would be more than happy to assist you in dealing with your issues.

[Donovan]

Dead kid=scoreboard. It doesn't matter whether the kid was be polar or not, I only said that to play devils advocate for Sally ' s argument that mommy might not have been able to get spoiled kid out of the road physically.

Bottom line is this: there are very few instances where physical intervention( i.e. dragging someone's stupid ass out of the road ) are warranted. There is a thing called gradient of control that should dictate and measure every parent ' s response to kids doing stupid shit. The less parental interference the better, in most cases

EXCEPT

when child is in imminent danger of harm or death. In those cases the parent is responsible. Kinda the definition of the fucking word "parent". That kid sat her stupid ass on the road. Her mood, her demeanor, her right to shotgun in mommy's minivan...none of that matters. She died and it's mom's fault for not dragging her stupid ass out of harm's way.

As to the alternative HotD scenario: I am a frequent driver, both alone and with passengers, including children, and I have faced exactly the scenario you describe. The answer is not a pleasant one but it is easy. My first and foremost responsibility, even above the life of a stranger, is any minor or non consenting charge in my care at the time. If I'm alone I stop. No question. If I am placing my child in harms way then I do not stop. Also no question. So your answer is YES. That woman was responsible for her sons death through negligent parenting. No matter how good her intentions were. Pretty sure there's a road made of good intentions in popular myth. Where does it lead again? The end.

[HairOfTheDog]

That kid sat her stupid ass on the road. Her mood, her demeanor, her right to shotgun in mommy's minivan...none of that matters.

I agree. I don't think it matters when it comes to considering "who's to blame" for Trinity Bachmann's death.

It's only been part of the discussion in terms of people sharing their opinions and assumptions as to what kind of 13-year-old would pull such a disrespectful and stupid stunt.

Personally, there's no doubt in my mind that Trinity is at least partly to blame for her own death, and she may be fully to blame. Had she not willfully chosen to plant her butt (fat or otherwise, irrelevant to me) in the road, she'd not have been struck by the 21-year-old motorist's car. To me, it doesn't matter why she planted her butt there -- her death is no less sad because her own disrespectful and bratty behavior culminated in her death.

(IMO, the driver of the other car is partly to blame IF she was driving recklessly -- for whatever reason -- and could have avoided hitting Trinity and her mom had she been driving responsibly.)

She died and it's mom's fault for not dragging her stupid ass out of harm's way.

I think your case against mom is weak, no matter which way you angle it.

Mom didn't put her child in harm's way in this case, but we know that mom was trying to get her daughter out of harm's way when the girl was struck by another car. And, it wasn't like Trinity was sitting there for hours before mom took action. It appears to have all gone down quite quickly. I'm not convinced, based on what we know now, that there is anything mom could have done differently in the middle of the road that night to change the outcome.

I also have no cause to blame Trinity's dad or any other parental figures that may have helped raised her. I don't think Trinity's idiotic tantrum that night, nor her accidental death, means that she was undoubtedly a bad kid and/or a product of bad parenting.

Trinity mighta been a generally great kid with great parents. She mighta been an okay kid with shitty parents. She mighta been an asshole kid with great parents. She mighta been a great kid with asshole parents. Etc... My perspective is the same as blueberry's and sally's and cars'......there's no way for me to judge the quality of Trinity's parentage based on the information available at this time. All I know about her parents at this point is that Trinity's mom had her daughter engaged in Future Farmers of America and in cheer-leading, and Trinity's mom was the parent who spent her night driving a group of teens to and from the fair so they could participate in a school project, and Trinity's mom -- by all accounts -- is absolutely devastated by the loss of her child.

[Donovan]

My blaming of the mom stems from only the facts we know and what can be extrapolated from them. Trinity according to the story was melting down because she did not get her desired outcome, in this case the shotgun seat. Standard behavior modification dictates that children are pretty simple and straightforward in their approach: they stick with what works. And quickly discard what doesn't. At some point in Trinity's young and immature existence she was given positive reenforcement for melting down, and got what she wanted out of a tantrum. Therefore, she got the idea that sitting in the middle of a busy road was an effective way to get what she wanted from her mom again.

That is the fault of the parent.

Everything else is sheer speculation on how often she may have tantrummed, what kind of kid she may have been, etc. Fact one: she was the charge and responsibility of that parent whose only job was to keep her alive and train her properly. Since she is now dead from doing something extremely self-destructive and stupid, I'd say mom failed spectacularly.

Legally speaking, this case should be ruled an accident and a tragedy. But mom is going to live with her failure for a very long time, and I'd be willing to bet if we were in a position to know her thoughts, there's zero doubt who SHE thinks failed her daughter.

Bottom line is, there are some select few parenting situations that require and demand a strong and instant reaction. You don't talk your child out of imminent danger, you snatch them away from it. By the hair if that's the only way you can.

[HairOfTheDog]

You're all over the map here, Donovan.

First you insist that had the parents given Trinity a beatdown or locked her in her room sometime in the past, she wouldn't have had a tantrum the night that she died -- essentially, that a lack of appropriate intervention, punishment and discipline by the parents culminated in Trinity's death.

Then you claim that parents should directly intervene very little when it comes to the actions of their children, except if the child puts him/herself in a dangerous or life-threatening situation. If the parent is unable to save the child from the child's own actions at such a time, the parent is a failure and is to blame for the child's death -- no ifs, ands, or buts about it -- in your current view.

Both contradictory parenting philosophies that you've espoused are based on your claimed opinions at the time you posted them, which is not a problem because that's what I was interested in hearing; people's opinions, assumptions, speculations based on what we know.

How you've applied your philosophies and opinions to determine culpability in the death of Trinity Bachmann is based on pure speculation, which is not a problem, though you continue to position your conclusion as based on fact. You do not know how Trinity was parented. You do not know if mom had time to physically remove her daughter from the road before the girl was struck. You do not know if mom had Trinity by the hair when the girl was struck and thus was struck herself.

I agree with you that mom likely blames herself for Trinity's death. Parents often express feelings of guilt and self-blame when their children are killed because they have an inherent desire to protect their children from harm and they weren't able to do so. "If only I'd driven my 12-year-old son to school instead of letting him walk 6 blocks, he wouldn't have been hit by a stray bullet and died." "I should have taken my daughter to the hospital when she first started coughing instead of assuming she had the bug that was going around; the doctors might have been able to save her." The fact that parents often blame themselves when they lose children doesn't mean the parents are responsible for the deaths; IMO, it doesn't bolster your argument that Trinity's mom is to blame if, in fact, she blames herself.

My opinion -- and that's all it is -- is that Trinity, at 13, was to blame for her own unfortunate death. The driver who struck her may also share responsibility; too early to know yet. If it turns out that mom knowingly let or encouraged Trinity to sit in the street before she took action, she also shares responsibility for the death.

[Duchess]

I was interested in hearing; people's opinions, assumptions, speculations based on what we know.

I always so much appreciate seeing you say that because I often shoot my mouth off and for the most part I wouldn't want to be taken too seriously given my opinion in the morning is sometimes wildly different than what it is in the afternoon.

[HairOfTheDog]

^ I change my opinion and assumptions sometimes too; usually when more facts become known or someone makes a good point that I hadn't factored into the equation previously. Or, when I sober up.

So, do you think this teen is to blame for the death of her boyfriend? Should anyone really be held legally responsible for not discouraging/preventing suicidal non-minors from taking their own lives?

^ Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy, 18

Michelle Carter was charged last month with involuntary manslaughter in the death of her boyfriend Conrad Roy III, who died of carbon monoxide poisoning in his truck in Fairhaven, Massachusetts last July.

When Conrad texted Michelle that he wasn't sure he should take his life and had climbed out of the vehicle, she allegedly texted him: 'Get back in.'

Now it has emerged that she later told a friend: 'He got out of the car, and I told him to get back in... because I knew he would do it all over again the next day'.

Police speculate that Michelle's communications with her friends indicate that she had put together a plan to get sympathy after the death of Conrad -- which they contend was evident because she had already started explaining that it was her fault that Conrad was dead, even though he was still alive and speaking and texting with her.

Police and prosecutors say the pair exchanged more than 1,000 text messages in the days leading up to his death in the parking lot of a Fairhaven Kmart on July 13, 2014.

Ref: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...n-day.html