Robin Williams Dead

[ZEROSPHERES]

Robin always seemed the bipolar type. Manic on stage and depressed off it.

I think he was chased by depression all his life and the manic high from being on stage was a coping mechanism. Recently this lead to him over working and exhaustion which spiraled him into deeper depression (manic lows). Then he doubled his coping efforts by working even harder which exhausted and depressed him beyond coping at all.

[ramseycat]

GMA had me crying this morning.

[Maggot]

Goose
My
Ass?

[Eat Shit And Die]

I always found him incredibly annoying in his films and stand ups, but I liked him when he was being himself.

Bit of a shock but not much of a loss for me.

[Maggot]

Should a suicide because of depression be called insanity?

[sally]

If you're insane then yes. If you're just the average Joe with no mental disorders and off yourself because the dog ran away and your wife left you then no.

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't think most people who commit suicide are insane, even though it was a criminal action up until the 60s.

I do think people who commit suicide are mentally ill, though. It's gotta be hell to be so depressed and not be able to convince yourself that you're not helpless to overcome that level of despair. To me, that kind of mental illness isn't a case of not knowing right from wrong or the consequences of your actions. It's about seeing death as more right than continuing to live. It's not insanity.

I am truly sad about Robin Williams. Aside from some people not caring for his brand of comedy or his acting or whatever, it's pretty rare for someone who was a star for so long to be so well-liked and loved across the board. I watched and read a lot of his interviews and, aside from jokes about politicians, never heard him bash anybody else or elevate himself. The man started Comic Relief to help others in need. He walked around and talked to people without any heir about him. He was best friends with Christopher Reeve since they attended Julliard (where Williams was the weird west coast outcast and Reeve was the golden boy) and Williams was with Reeve and his family until the day Reeve died. I remember reading some time back about how long it took Robin Williams to pull himself out of the grief.



Robin Williams also entertained the troops a whole lot without ever making a to-do about it -- he just went because he was grateful for their service and wanted to give them something to smile about.

Anyway, I could watch his stand-up all day and thought a few of his movies were great. But, mostly, watching him just think and react unscripted, and be so honest in answering serious questions, made him seem like an exceptionally bright, kind and generous person -- famous or not.

[Maggot]

If you're insane then yes. If you're just the average Joe with no mental disorders and off yourself because the dog ran away and your wife left you then no.

But isn't killing oneself the ultimate act of insanity at least for a brief moment?

And HOTD, I really liked him myself. It takes an insane person to be able to articulate all those voices that were in his head, I guess the hotel in his brain posted the "no vacancy" sign and they all checked out. I'm reminded of Sybil for some odd reason. Poor ole chap.

[HairOfTheDog]

If you're insane then yes. If you're just the average Joe with no mental disorders and off yourself because the dog ran away and your wife left you then no.

But isn't killing oneself the ultimate act of insanity at least for a brief moment?

And HOTD, I really liked him myself. It takes an insane person to be able to articulate all those voices that were in his head, I guess the hotel in his brain posted the "no vacancy" sign and they all checked out. I'm reminded of Sybil for some odd reason. Poor ole chap.

I didn't think you were disparaging him at all, Mags. I just don't view him as having been insane or hearing voices, but rather exceedingly bright and deeply affected.

I read an interview with Chris Rock (I think he's great too) a few minutes ago. His answer as to whether he was surprised about his friend's deep depression is about how I see it, too.

Rock: Nah, I mean it wasn’t a surprise. Comedians can be a sad bunch, you know. You know what’s the saying? Ignorance is bliss. So if ignorance is bliss, what’s the opposite of ignorance? Must not be bliss. And your job as a comedian, you know, is basically to notice everything. And the better the comedian, the more aware he or she is of the world around them. So you know, it can be not a happy place. Sometimes you can have too much information. Sometimes you can know too much. So no, I was not, I’m never shocked at a comedian dealing with depression.
Interview: http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/chri...255&page=2

Who knows though -- maybe he was insane?

[aussiefriend]

But isn't killing oneself the ultimate act of insanity at least for a brief moment?

It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Suicidal ideation passes just like a low mood. That person needs to be watched and in a safe environment when they are in that state. Calling it insanity seems insensitive to me, but you may be right.

I don't think most people who commit suicide are insane, even though it was a criminal action up until the 60s.

I just did a epidemiological study on suicide in Australia last semester. That is true HoTD it was a criminal act, and it was also a sin by the church. So societies approach to suicide was much more different to what it is now. Although suicide is not talked about enough in our society. It's the lack of understanding that makes these people vulnerable.

Even the term 'committed' suicide, is wrong, you cannot 'commit' suicide just the way you cannot 'commit' cancer. Someone has died as a result of mental illness, which ended in suicide.

I am not correcting you HoTD, because that is the way our society describes it in the language used.

My father died as a result of suicide. Not meaning to take away from Robin Williams and his thread.

[HairOfTheDog]

I know you have personal, professional and academic experience with suicide, aussie. I appreciate what you're saying.

I'm not arguing with you, and I agree that depression and suicide deserve more discussion and public focus -- I'm interested in your perspectives.

In that spirit, I do have a different take on a couple of your points.

There's not a scientifically agreed-upon cause of depression like there is for many other conditions or illnesses. The pharmaceutical companies seem to all be in agreement that chemical imbalance is the cause, unsurprisingly. But, there are plenty of top psychiatrists, psychologists and other specialists who disagree and attribute severe depression and suicidal tendencies to many other factors.

I've researched the subject in conjunction with some volunteer work that I used to do. Here's a recent article in Psychology Today about what some consider the myth of brain chemical imbalance as the cause of depression: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/curi...imbalances

And, "committed suicide" is an accurate term -- it's not wrong. "Commit depression" would be wrong, of course. One can't commit a condition, disease or illness. However, practically and technically speaking, suicide is the act one commits to cause one's own death. Just like homicide is the act one commits to cause another's death. One's a crime and one no longer is a crime in most countries, but the word "commit" doesn't by definition relate only to a crime or a negative. Maybe it does by association for some and is not politically correct in some circles?

From the work that I've done, along with the research, I'm not of the opinion that suicide ideation always passes like a mood. For some people, yes. For others, definitely not.

[aussiefriend]

I agree with everything that you are saying HoTD. I guess I am coming from a perspective of using the word 'commit' stems from when it was a crime. And suicidal ideation is one of many symptoms that can culminate in the act of suicide. So the thought process along with persistent low mood, anhedonia, self harm attempts, history, depending on the individual, it may be that something is 'just not right'. I always take a suicide threat seriously.

Addit: I am just going to look up that journal article I was reading last semester, and see if I can find the piece about the word 'commit' and how it is used with suicide.

[aussiefriend]

Suicide is not a sin and is no longer a crime so we should stop saying that people 'commit'suicide. We now live in a time when we seek to understand people who experience suicidal ideation, behaviours and attempts and to treat them with compassion rather than condemn them. This issue is important because of the three powerful, historical and potentially stigmatising uses to which the word 'commit'has been put: 1. The word 'commit'is commonly used in connection with religious offences. Indeed suicide is considered wrong ...

(Beaton, S., Forster, P., and Maple, M., 2013, Suicide Bereavement and the Media, Advances in Mental Health, 11, 2, pp. 204–206.).

That is a very basic description/quote of the article. I have it in PDF format. I wont put the whole lot up.

[HairOfTheDog]

^ Thanks, aussie.

I don't doubt that there are others who agree with the authors of that article; that the term is politically incorrect or insensitive due to negative association.

I don't think that way at all. It doesn't change my feelings or thoughts to hear/read that someone "committed suicide" vs. someone "took his own life" vs. someone "killed himself". They're all accurate.

And, I don't doubt that you and the authors are right about there still being plenty of people who view those who commit suicide as sinners or criminals for having done so. I'm not one of them. I'd be surprised if those who view it that way would see it any differently no matter how the act was termed though.

[crash]

So what is the PC version?

He ? suicide

He did suicide
He performed suicide
He won at suicide

or just He suicided?

[crash]

Tried to find video of a late night show (Leno, I think) like 20 years ago where they were both guests at the same time. The host totally lost control of the show and the two of them couldn't stop busting out characters and crazy smart one-liners one right on top of the other -- I don't think I've laughed so hard at a tv show before or since.

This is the episode, but I couldn't find any video.

[aussiefriend]

I think that you are correct HoTD in your description. That article was looking at removing stigma and how to achieve that. It is a constant challenge in mental health to remove stigma from different illness' to understand conditions better. I guess they are associating it with old fashioned terms. I used to be ashamed about what happened with my father. I talk about it openly now. There is nothing to be ashamed of.

[blueberryhill]

There is a diagnostic manual for psychiatric diseases just like for physical diseases. There are degrees of depression and I have been diagnosed with mild to moderate depression. Severe depression very often ends in suicide and sadly, meds and/or intervention doesn't work. It is a chemical imbalance and tends to run in families. You can win the lottery, have many friends, beautiful children, great job. It just doesn't matter if you have clinical depression. Everyone has situational depression, we are sad when we suffer a loss, lose a job, someone we love dies and so forth. People who suffer from depression only wish that a positive attitude, mind over matter, finding God or whatever just doesn't work. This is reason I called someone a piece of shit on Facebook when he said Robin would be alive now if he had God in his life. Some of these Facebook fucks are something else; he said a lot of stupid shit. Anti-depressants work sometimes for mild to moderate depression, but not completely. There can be that underlying sadness in your soul which never goes away. Distractions help also, IMO, but if you suffer from severe depression, it is a challenge. Usually addictions are a symptom of the disease, but can be the opposite. Being a counselor helped me with my depression because I could relate to the kids on so many levels and these were high-risk young people and depression, personality disorders, etc. were prevalent. (16-21 youth). Did have one suicide who was on Christmas leave in Denver when it happened. He was very quiet and did not like to participate in group therapy; interestingly, he had taken his girlfriend home to meet his family..

[aussiefriend]

When the patient has been catatonic with depression, I have seen a course of several ECTs (electroconvulsive therapy) work, but the patient always comes back for more maintenance.

[HairOfTheDog]

Nothing to be ashamed of at all, aussie.

I think the personal experience you bring to your profession is probably quite helpful to people who've lost a loved one to suicide. You know first-hand about the impacts, though I'm not suggesting everyone processes it the same way.

From what I've seen and read, it's very common for loved ones to directly or indirectly blame themselves and focus on "what-ifs", and to feel like they weren't important enough to give the deceased a motive to live. I understand those feelings, but don't believe that they reflect reality in the large majority of cases. In my experience, the large majority of mature adults who battle severe depression and eventually commit suicide are convinced that their struggles make them a burden on others -- that the right thing to do for themselves and those closest to them is to cease to exist. Past a certain point, that conviction can't be easily changed, if at all, IMO.

Anyway, if you can help family and friends to better understand and cope with losing a loved one to suicide (with less self-blame and shame), that's a great gift, IMO --whether you do it on a professional or personal basis.

And, now I'm taking off my serious hat.