TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE

[HairOfTheDog]

Most of white bread America is against persecution? How fair of them. There's a difference between persecution and prosecution...

Persecution of either all cops or all citizens (of whatever color) based on presumptions and singular incidents is weak, IMO.

Asking questions and acknowledging patterns (like those of cops or residents in certain geographies -- in this case inner cities) is fair. But, applying stereotypes and baseless presumptions in assessing specific cases is also weak, IMO.

Question tho... what's the first aid treatment for gunshot wounds? Mouth to mouth? Put his feet up?

Officers Loehmann and Garmback should have known the answer to your question, Cutz.

If they did not, I think it could be a problem for the Cleveland PD in defending itself against the civil suit.

I don't know if immediate first aid would have increased Tamir's chances for survival, but I believe First Aid Certification is policy for Cleveland PD field officers. Tamir was alive while he lay unattended and unaided in the grass for 4 minutes. He was alive for 9 hours following the shooting.

Anyway, here's my answer to your question: Follow basic first aid while waiting for EMTs. If the gunshot victim is breathing but unconscious, clear and keep the airway open. If he/she is not breathing, begin CPR -- which is what the FBI agent did when he showed up and gave Tamir mouth-to-mouth until the ambulance arrived.

Well... at least his mom put out there that he isn't allowed to play with guns. She must really be mad at her son for playing with it and getting himself shot. Probably mad at his friend too. Wonder why his name hasn't come out. Oh... cause there's white cops to blame. That's popular these days.

If she's telling the truth, I doubt she's mad at her dead child for disobeying. Kids tend to do that. Unless she's insane, she'd be more concerned about the fact that her son was killed and would not figure that a death sentence was warranted for disobeying mom.

As for the kid who allegedly gave Tamir the pellet gun -- assuming Samaria Rice knows who it is -- why on earth would she blame him or throw the kid into the public spotlight? Whoever gave him the toy committed no crime nor could he/she have foreseen the chain of events that would follow.

And, IMO, we'd be having this exact same conversation if Loehmann was black and Garmback was hispanic and Tamir was white -- given the 911 call, the dispatch call, the surveillance video, Cleveland PD's poor record, Loehmann's poor record, and the initial deception by PD regarding the killing by police of a 12-year-old with a plastic gun in the park.

[HairOfTheDog]

Kids, Juveniles and young adults who choose a life of crime are taking chances with their lives.

I haven't seen a single person disagree with that statement. I agree that one reaps what they sow but how does that pertain to this case and a couple others that you have referenced? This isn't verbatim but you basically said at least one of these kids would probably grow up to be a thug so his death isn't a loss.

IMO, it's truly ignorant to make this huge, baseless, presumptuous leap: "someone who chooses to play with bebe guns, pellet guns, airsoft guns, etc" = "someone who has chosen a life of violent crime and deserves to be killed".

A whole lot of American youth (and adults) -- be they rich, poor, big, small, white, brown, stupid, smart, etc -- play with replica guns (and real ones). Only a fool would suggest that they're all criminals or destined to be violent criminals in so doing.

I pity the fool.

[HairOfTheDog]

CLEVELAND PD UNION SPEAKS OUT AFTER AUTOPSY RELEASED

Here's the current version of events from Officers Loehmann and Garmback, according to Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association president Jeff Follmer. He gave an interview to the AP yesterday.

THE DISPATCH:
Follmer told the AP that the 911 dispatcher followed protocol in sending Loehmann and Garmback on a "gun run" call, but the officers were not told that the guy in the park was thought to be a juvenile with an airsoft gun.

THE STRATEGY (KINDA):
Follmer said that the officers discussed strategy before approaching. They thought they were dealing with an adult with a gun who would run when the police car pulled up.

THE APPROACH:
Oops. Officer Frank Garmback pulled into the park after seeing Tamir at a distance and slammed on the brakes when Tamir did not run, as they had expected, Follmer said. That caused the car to slide on the slick grass and stop within a few feet of the boy, Follmer said.

Follmer contends that Officer Loehmann then told Tamir to put his hands up 3 times in the less than 2 seconds before he shot Tamir; Tamir did not draw the weapon from his waistband before he was shot, but he "nearly" did. (HOTD: I have serious doubts about Loehmann's instructions to Tamir, even more so now. It happened so fast and it was not, according to their latest story, part of the plan for rookie Loehmann to be so close to the guy with the gun in the first place.)

PERCEPTION OF TAMIR:
Follmer said the officers assumed the guy with the gun was 20, and he used the autopsy record of Tamir's height and weight to explain why the officers thought so under the circumstances.

LACK OF FIRST AID:
I saw no mention from Follmer as to why the officers did not provide first aid to Tamir after the shooting.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/autopsy-cleveland-...27189.html

[Midwest Spy]

Kids, Juveniles and young adults who choose a life of crime are taking chances with their lives.

I haven't seen a single person disagree with that statement. I agree that one reaps what they sow but how does that pertain to this case and a couple others that you have referenced? This isn't verbatim but you basically said at least one of these kids would probably grow up to be a thug so his death isn't a loss.

IMO, it's truly ignorant to make this huge, baseless, presumptuous leap: "someone who chooses to play with bebe guns, pellet guns, airsoft guns, etc" = "someone who has chosen a life of violent crime and deserves to be killed".

You're the one that's chosen to keep on attacking me HotD and yet you keep disregarding the facts to support your presumptions about me.

Tamir was in a public setting, 'playing' as YOU like to point out, while video tape shows citizens running from him while he's pretending to brandish his weapon. That's not exactly cops and robbers in the backyard.

That's how you get the cops called on your ass.

So get a fucking grip, get off my sack and get your ass to downtown Oakland and start fucking protesting against the cops.

[Duchess]

Here's the current version of events from Officers Loehmann and Garmback

They lie, that's a fact.

All I see is more justifying bullshit. None of that means anything to me. Unfortunately they choose to lie at the very beginning so now I question everything they have to say. I don't trust them to tell the truth now.

I'd love to see someone address what that one cop was doing on their force after it had already been established that law enforcement was probably not the job for him.

[HairOfTheDog]

You're the one that's chosen to keep on attacking me HotD and yet you keep disregarding the facts to support your presumptions about me.

Tamir was in a public setting, 'playing' as YOU like to point out, while video tape shows citizens running from him while he's pretending to brandish his weapon. That's not exactly cops and robbers in the backyard.

That's how you get the cops called on your ass.

So get a fucking grip, get off my sack and get your ass to downtown Oakland and start fucking protesting against the cops.

Poor you, MS.

You post what you want and then get your feelings hurt when I respond as I see fit. It's not fair!

It's dumb for kids to play with real looking fake guns in public these days. I've never said otherwise. Sad but true reality. Also, sad but true: kids do dumb things. Sometimes I question adults who kill kids -- whether those kids are doing dumb things or not.

Tamir scared people -- he didn't have a real gun, didn't shoot the pellet gun, didn't hit or rob or commit any crime against anyone. You can call what he was doing whatever you want -- I'm calling it "playing", just like people play "paint ball" or play "cops and robbers" or play "gangsta" or play "grand theft auto" or whatever else.

I don't need to go to Oakland and protest the police. I don't have a problem with the police in general -- not here in SF nor in Oakland. Just like I didn't have a problem with the grand jury decision in the Ferguson case, even though you made baseless assumptions that I did and that I supported Michael Brown -- despite my never having felt or posted any such thing. I realize your mind is very narrow, but try to keep up.

Anyway, my grip is firm -- your's seems loose, at best. So, I'll honor your request and stop addressing your bullshit for a while, you poor little thing. No problem, MS.

[Duchess]

It bugs the snot out of me that Cleveland police did not even look over that rookie cop's previous employment record. Who doesn't do that? It says right in black & white that the deputy chief felt that neither time nor training would be enough to correct that officer's deficiencies. If the outcome wasn't so godawful, it would all be a comedy of errors.

[Duchess]

You're the one that's chosen to keep on attacking me HotD

[Midwest Spy]

You're the one that's chosen to keep on attacking me HotD

HotD's sidekick right on cue.

lol

[HairOfTheDog]

You're the one that's chosen to keep on attacking me HotD

It's no problem for me to hold off on posting with the delicate Christ-whisperer for a while.


In regards to Cleveland PD not reviewing Loehmann's file before hiring him, they've amended their hiring process in the wake of Tamir's shooting and the DOJ review of the department.

The Cleveland Division of Police does not have a written policy mandating a review of an applicant’s previous employer personnel file. While our policy does not require obtaining a personnel file prior to employment, the Cleveland Division of Police has amended our policies to request a personnel file from previous employers.

I was surprised that reviewing the employment file for a former officer wouldn't have been part of the hiring process long ago too. If I was doing the hiring, I'd sure go beyond a couple of questions on the phone with an HR person from the former department -- especially for an applicant who'd resigned very quickly from from his first assignment with a department only 10 miles away -- whether I was formally required to do so or not.

Loehmann's father is retired NYPD -- I don't know if he had any pull with Cleveland PD or not, but he spoke to the press quickly after the shooting. He said his son told him he had no choice but to shoot, FWIW.

[sally]

You're the one that's chosen to keep on attacking me HotD

HotD's sidekick right on cue.

lol

Some of the stuff you say is absurd. I'm sorry you feel like you're being bullied, Christ whisperer.

[Cutz]

Whoever gave him the toy committed no crime nor could he/she have foreseen the chain of events that would follow.

And, IMO, we'd be having this exact same conversation if Loehmann was black and Garmback was hispanic and Tamir was white --

Bullshit. I have no idea why people call airsoft guns toys. Nerf guns are toys. Orange laser guns that flash lights are toys. Airsoft guns fire non-lethal projectiles. While created for recreational purposes, they're more sporting equipment than toys. Would I give a kid a fencing sword to go play in the park for 3 hours alone? Hell no, he might hurt himself or others. I can foresee the chain of events that led to this kid getting shot... obviously his mom foresaw possible danger.

Second, I think you personally would be having the exact same conversation if the shooter was black and the kid was white. You're interested in these types of stories. The media in general, tho, would not give it this kind of attention. Particularly, there'd be way more acceptance that the kid directly contributed to his death through his actions instead of playing it up as an innocent 12 year old. That video of him like throwing a snowball? "Typical kid stuff," says white newscaster obviously portraying the sweet poor black kid gunned down by tyrannical white police officer angle. It's ridiculous.

[HairOfTheDog]

Bullshit. I have no idea why people call airsoft guns toys. Nerf guns are toys. Orange laser guns that flash lights are toys. Airsoft guns fire non-lethal projectiles. While created for recreational purposes, they're more sporting equipment than toys. Would I give a kid a fencing sword to go play in the park for 3 hours alone? Hell no, he might hurt himself or others. I can foresee the chain of events that led to this kid getting shot... obviously his mom foresaw possible danger.

I don’t see any bullshit, Cutz.

I can tell you why a pellet gun is sometimes referred to as a toy gun. It’s because pellet guns are used for recreation, as you noted. Kids have been playing with pellet guns for ages. When kids use something for recreational purposes, it’s often referred to as a toy. Tamir was a kid.

I’ve seen and myself referred to the pellet gun as an airsoft, a plastic gun, a toy gun, a fakie, a replica gun, and other terms. None of them are incorrect, IMO. Just like I could call a "pistol" a gun, a weapon, a hand-gun, a semi-automatic (in some cases) and other terms – all of which would be correct. It’s not bullshit nor difficult to understand.

And, last time I checked, you and Samaria Rice weren’t kids. A kid wouldn’t likely be thinking that giving his friend a plastic gun (call it whatever suits your fancy) could result in the friend being shot to death by the police or hurting himself with it.

Anyway, there are no gun control laws associated with pellet guns. So, whoever gave Tamir the gun did not commit any crime. Even if the same person removed the orange tip, that was stupid, but it wasn't a crime (though many wrongly claim it is -- it's against Federal regulations for airsoft manufacturers not to include the orange tip, but not illegal for the consumer/user to remove it).

In any case, I don't disagree that Tamir was irresponsible with the plastic gun in today's environment.

Second, I think you personally would be having the exact same conversation if the shooter was black and the kid was white. You're interested in these types of stories. The media in general, tho, would not give it this kind of attention. Particularly, there'd be way more acceptance that the kid directly contributed to his death through his actions instead of playing it up as an innocent 12 year old. That video of him like throwing a snowball? "Typical kid stuff," says white newscaster obviously portraying the sweet poor black kid gunned down by tyrannical white police officer angle. It's ridiculous.

Well, yeah, as I said “we” would be having this discussion even if Tamir wasn’t black and/or the officers weren’t white. Mock isn’t a media site and we’ve discussed the shooting of non-black kids here before. There’s no disputing my statement.

IMO, it’s highly likely that the media would cover Tamir’s killing even if he weren’t black and/or the officers weren’t white. A child (or adult) being shot to death by police when packing only a plastic gun is gonna make the news, in my experience.

I disagree with your contention that a non-black child with a plastic gun being shot by police within seconds of approach would be presumed any more or less responsible for his own death than a black one. It’s been about the same in the case of Andy Lopez; some blame the training officer and the rookie cop, some blame the kid, some blame the manufacturer, some blame the parents, some don’t blame anyone…

Now, if you’re suggesting that Tamir’s case wouldn’t be getting so much media coverage and attention from a large audience were he not black and the cops not white, I think you’re right. I think Tamir’s case is getting more national coverage than I'd have expected in the past because of Tamir’s killing being in such close proximity to other high-profile stories of young black males across the country being killed by police officers and the resulting protest movement.

You use the word "ridiculous" liberally, IMO. It wasn't ridiculous when many people (including investigators) questioned why the 911 dispatcher omitted some information from first responders, IMO, even though you claimed it was. And, it's not ridiculous, IMO, to look at a 12-year-old boy walking around in the park, waving a plastic gun, throwing snowballs, and talking on the phone and consider it "typical kid stuff". It might not be typical in your experience, but it's pretty typical in mine and some others'. I can see it being subjective.

Here's what's not subjective -- before the surveillance video was revealed, the officers or their reps pushed a story to the media that Tamir was with a group of people and that he picked up the gun and put it in his waistband when the officers approached him. Why do you think they would lie like that if they felt confident that Tamir's irresponsible childish actions made him responsible for his own death and that they had responded appropriately?

[Duchess]

I just checked to see what google had to say about BB guns. They are marketed and sold as toys, with most manufacturers using the same mold to make them as is used with a "real" gun.

If kids are going to be shot dead in a park for playing with their toy guns then something has to change. The orange tips are worthless. I'd suggest paint but I think that would be worthless as well. As an aside, I recently read about a man with a real gun who painted it to look like a toy.

The cop who shot him needs to resign or be fired, one or the other, he has no business in uniform, none.

[Cutz]

In the interest of brevity, I'll just say that the "lies" about the situation could be nothing more than wrong statements. The cop says he thinks the suspect is 20... that's not a lie so much as wrong. Perhaps that belief is grounded in the fact that I don't think they need to lie about the situation.

Tamir was disobedient (if you believe his mother), an asshole (trying to scare strangers by pointing a gun at them), and an idiot (advancing on officers while drawing a weapon.) When I was a kid, I played with guns, some of them real looking, but my parents warned me that if I left the yard with them I could be arrested or worse. My mom specifically said some cop could shoot me not knowing it was fake. I obeyed my parents. If I didn't think Tamir was directly responsible for his death, I might vilify the officers the same way. I feel bad the kid is dead, but in the same situation, dude drawing a weapon from his waist while walking toward me... I'd have shot him myself.

[Duchess]

Wrong statements from police officers? Say it ain't so.

Cutz, they tried to cover their ass and had it not been for video they would have been successful.

[Cutz]

Maybe. I'll certainly admit that in most cases, post incident, both sides try to spin the story their way. Thankfully, in this case, we have video evidence of the incident. In that video evidence, I previously identified mistakes that were made by the officers, but I'd still say it was a justified shooting. I just don't care what they say about it when I can see how the situation broke down with my own two eyes.

[HairOfTheDog]

In the interest of brevity, I'll just say that the "lies" about the situation could be nothing more than wrong statements. The cop says he thinks the suspect is 20... that's not a lie so much as wrong. Perhaps that belief is grounded in the fact that I don't think they need to lie about the situation.

I think you're being very generous in entertaining the possibility that the officers innocently made wrong statements and weren't lying when they claimed that Tamir was with "a few people" when they rolled up on him. That they were both simply mistaken about the fact that he was alone defies logic, IMO. It makes much more sense, to me, that they lied intentionally to create a narrative whereby Tamir was hanging out with bad guys or that he posed a threat to others in order to justify their wrongful approach and mishandling of the situation.

Investigators will be looking at whether the officers responded appropriately, not only whether Tamir reacted appropriately to supposed commands to put up his hands. Should the officers have assumed that he'd run and pulled up so fast and so close rather than leave room for plan B? Should they have instead instructed him from a distance and responded accordingly? Is it reasonable to believe that Officer Loehmann clearly yelled out from inside the car or while jumping out of the car for Tamir to raise his hands three times in under 2 seconds, while the car was unexpectedly sliding across the grass? Valid questions in making the determination as to whether this was a justified shooting.

Whether they were both wrong in the exact same ways in assessing the scene before approaching or they lied in attempt to cover their asses after the fact, it's a problem for the officers and the Cleveland PD, IMO.

Tamir was disobedient (if you believe his mother), an asshole (trying to scare strangers by pointing a gun at them), and an idiot (advancing on officers while drawing a weapon.) When I was a kid, I played with guns, some of them real looking, but my parents warned me that if I left the yard with them I could be arrested or worse. My mom specifically said some cop could shoot me not knowing it was fake. I obeyed my parents. If I didn't think Tamir was directly responsible for his death, I might vilify the officers the same way. I feel bad the kid is dead, but in the same situation, dude drawing a weapon from his waist while walking toward me... I'd have shot him myself.

I think it's interesting how you characterize Tamir based on a couple of hours of his life. One incident of playing/acting aggressively with a plastic gun in the park (a plastic gun his mom claims she wouldn't have given him) doesn't make it a given, to me, that Tamir Rice was an idiotic, disobedient, asshole who is responsible for his own death. But, I acknowledge that he might have been a disobedient little asshole in general. I don't know.

In contrast, you view questioning the qualifications of the shooting cop -- the cop who had an emotional breakdown on the job, displayed dismal performance during firearm training, couldn't follow instructions, fell asleep during training, left a loaded gun unsecured, demonstrated inappropriate responses during live situational field training, and was about to be fired for consistently poor performance during his months of employment -- as persecuting or vilifying the cop for simply "having feelings one day".

The different perspectives and opinions are interesting to me.

I think there's probable cause for an indictment in this case and it should go to court so all the evidence can be presented from both sides and a jury can decide whether either or both of the officers acted recklessly in the killing of Tamir Rice. I don't think either officer will face murder charges (nor should they) if indicted because it's a stretch to believe they killed Tamir Rice with premeditation. But, it's reasonable to expect that they might face charges of negligent homicide based on what we know now, IMO.

We'll see.

[HairOfTheDog]

If kids are going to be shot dead in a park for playing with their toy guns then something has to change. The orange tips are worthless. I'd suggest paint but I think that would be worthless as well. As an aside, I recently read about a man with a real gun who painted it to look like a toy.

The cop who shot him needs to resign or be fired, one or the other, he has no business in uniform, none.

Hush your mouth, Duchess!

According to the Cleveland Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer, cops are invincible; they can't ever be in the wrong, nor should they be questioned. People need to stop questioning cops and just do as they're told -- that's the change needed to solve most everything, period.

Personally, I know better; I've seen differently. The police don't always respond appropriately and they sometimes lie; citizens get unjustly killed by police sometimes. It happens. Mr. Follmer might wanna read the DOJ investigation report into Cleveland PD -- at least one of the three reports, if he hasn't already.

Anyway, Follmer doesn't mention anything about the lies told by police reps in Tamir's case, nor how Loehmann's record of performance or case-specific tactical errors might figure into Tamir's death. He sure seems to have a lot to say in opposition to freedom of speech for others, though.



Follmer labeled Cleveland Browns' Andrew Hawkins as "pathetic" for wearing a shirt calling for justice for Tamir on Sunday.

"It's pretty pathetic when athletes think they know the law," Follmer said on Sunday. "They should stick to what they know best on the field. The Cleveland Police protect and serve the Browns stadium and the Browns organization owes us an apology."

After Hawkins explained on Monday that he wore the shirt thinking of what could happen to his 2-year-old son, Follmer refused to back down.

"It's not a call for justice, they were justified," Follmer said during an interview on MSNBC Monday evening. "Cleveland police officers work with the Cleveland Browns hand-in-hand, and when he disrespects two of our police officers, he disrespects everybody else." (HOTD: for real?)

"How about this? Listen to police officers commands, listen to what we tell you, and just stop," Follmer said. "I think that eliminates a lot of problems. I have kids too, they know how to respect the law. They know what to do when a police officer comes up to them. (HOTD: well, the police actually rolled and skidded up on Tamir reportedly screaming at him from inside a car -- I'm not sure that counts as "coming up to him"...).

"I think the nation needs to realize that when we tell you to do something, do it, and if you're wrong you're wrong, and if you're right, then the courts will figure it out."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/15...30990.html

That's what the man says. I believe many people agree with him.

[Duchess]

According to the Cleveland Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer, cops are invincible; they can't ever be in the wrong, nor should they be questioned. People need to stop questioning cops and just do as they're told -- that's the change needed to solve most everything, period.

That's what the man says. I believe many people agree with him.

That's the kind of thing dictators say.

For sure many people agree with him. I think there's one or two in Mock who do. I wouldn't want to single anyone out, nope, not going to bully anyone.