DEFINE LIBERAL

[crash]

Well I tell you one thing, in a world where the growth figures of psychosis and drug related mental illness related crimes are in double digits, I'm glad I live in the country that had the balls to do something about gun control. No sane person here feels like they have any less rights that are worth a tinkers cuss in today's society.

[BlueTiki]

I completely understand cannongal's position.

It is far less expensive to legislate gun control than provide care for the mentally ill.

And gun control is a wonderful emotionally charged argument to attack Constitutional rights.

I'd be all for an "Adopt a crazy or Racist" program . . . as long as it's in someone else's neighborhood or doesn't include me.

[HairOfTheDog]

I understand both cannongal's and MS's positions.

I just don't share the mindset that ease of gun-accessibility should be ignored (for any reason), or that mental health should be the only focus of discussion.

Mentally sound people who shouldn't have had easy access to guns use them to commit violent crimes every day.

[HairOfTheDog]

And gun control is a wonderful emotionally charged argument to attack Constitutional rights.

That doesn't mean that those of us who acknowledge that better means for keeping guns out of the wrong hands is necessary to help reduce violent crime should or will close one eye when viewing the problem.

[Jimbone]

There are more crazy people around because there are fewer places to house them.

Unfortunately in the 1960's, many communities began to close down and do away with psychiatric hospitals. Advocating instead for community based treatments and pharmaceutical care, patients who used to be institutionalized and cared for now are among us instead.

I don't know if that's what cannongal might have been referring to... building more facilities and going back to institutionalization isn't really discussed much when it comes to mental health treatment. I know most of these places had terrible reputations, but I like to think we've come a long way in fifty years. I think we could do it much better now, and I think in many cases we'd all be safer for it.

As it is many very mentally ill people end up in prisons or homeless - surely a mental health facility would be a better option in either case.

[Jimbone]

Mentally sound people who shouldn't have had easy access to guns use them to commit violent crimes every day.

Are we talking legal guns? Or illegal guns?

[BlueTiki]

Spy . . .

I have no idea where this little shit learned his hatred.

I do know that his father provided him with a handgun . . . knowing full well he had abused drugs and was in trouble with the law.

And he'll be fine in prison.

The Aryans will protect him while enjoying his mouth and ass.

[Adub]

The Uncle said dad bought the gun. LE says that Roof bought the gun himself. At a gun store in Charleston.

His dad may have known nothing about the drug charge, or anything else (even the gun). He lived with his mom and step-dad.

The Uncle is the brother of the mother. Of course he wants to point the finger at dad. Not at his sister. You can't believe everything that you read.

[BlueTiki]

^ ^ ^ True, dat. Thanks.

[HairOfTheDog]

Mentally sound people who shouldn't have had easy access to guns use them to commit violent crimes every day.

Are we talking legal guns? Or illegal guns?

Both.

A domestic abuser, an armed robber, a plotting spouse, a white supremist...who has no diagnosed mental illness or charges pressed can get a gun by legal means and kill his her family or targets. They, along with those with mental illnesses and criminal records, can also find ways to get guns by illegal means. In either case, were they responsible owners who should have had guns? No.

You can't legislate the problem away, but you can work on improving the process/enforcement for existing common sense gun laws and implementing new deterrents to keep guns out of so many wrong hands (without banning guns or gun types altogether).

My point was that mental illness is not always a factor or sole factor when it comes to gun violence and deaths. Focusing only on mental health issues is not logical.

In the case of the SC church shooter, I think he was a hate-filled and evil person based on what he did and his explanation as to why. I don't know if his family has any part in instilling that in him or not. Is he mentally ill? I don't know yet. I don't believe that every murderous piece of shit is mentally ill. Some are hate-filled, some are greedy, some are jealous, some are mentally ill.

"Take the firearm out of the equation" doesn't make any more good sense to me than "the firearm is the only factor in the equation" when it comes to addressing gun violence.

[BlueTiki]

*noun* violence.

Let's work on the violence component, first.

That's the common thread.

[Adub]

Liberals realize that society is always changing. And so public policy needs to also change. Liberals do not fear change. They are not threatened by change. They are fearless in the face of opposition. And their hearts beat a bit faster at injustice. They fully understand the human condition.
And, the reason why Jesus wept.

[BlueTiki]

Adub . . .

When you referred to Jesus, you're talking about Christ and not the one who got deported to Mexico . . . right?

[Jimbone]

[Adub]

Adub . . .

When you referred to Jesus, you're talking about Christ and not the one who got deported to Mexico . . . right?

yea, the one that said he was the son of God. I think it is pronounced with a hard J, like juice.
I definitely have a few issues with Jesus, Jorge, Juan, and Jose. The guys that think juice is pronounced huice.

[cannongal]

I don't understand your contention that lack of proper mental health treatment in this country is a topic which is ignored, cannongal.

My observation is opposite, not only at Mock but whenever the topics of crimes committed by apparently mentally unbalanced people and prison overcrowding are discussed.

Mental health policy failures have been discussed at length here and elsewhere in relation to gun control. Part of gun control policy is keeping firearms out of the hands of felons and mentally unstable individuals. Unfortunately, it's often difficult to monitor and enforce the existing restrictions and laws (which is also frequently part of the discussion).

Mental health and gun control discussions are not mutually exclusive when it comes to crime. You can focus on the mental health problem and someone else can focus on the gun-accessibility problem without having to deny that, many times, both are contributors that need to be addressed.

Anyway, I don't think MS or anyone else justifiably lamenting that another asshole used a gun, this time to end the lives of 9 people in a church, implies ignorance in regards to the possible mental health tie-in.

I never said MS was ignorant, I said he was arrogant. There's a big difference between not knowing anything, and thinking you know everything.


My contention with the mental health system comes from experience. A few years back, my step son (24 at the time) started going to into rages, the kid would start a fight with anyone and every one, and it eventually landed him in jail for 30 days.
The county jail shrink tagged him as bi-polar and started him on a drug regimen.

When they released him, they released him into the world with no meds, no referral to an outside shrink, and no warning to the person he beat up (the one that testified against him in court).

He didn't have medical insurance, so I brought him to the free clinic, to see if we could at least get him back on the meds. The clinic said they had to do their own evaluation, and that the booking time was four months out.

Do you want to know what happened before that 4 months was up? He stole my car and totaled it, beat some bouncer at a bar so badly he was in ICU for a week, and got himself arrested 6 times before landing in Jail for a year.

I've known the kid for 15 years, and he'd never shown signs of aggression or blackouts before, but for some reason, almost like a light swich-something switched in his brain at 24.

It could have been drugs that started it, I don't know, but when I tried to get some help for the kid, I was told it'd be 4 months before they could even see him.

That's why I say we need to do something about mental health in this country. Granted, it's much easier to arrest the crazy person, and take him off the streets for a few days, but then they release them back into the same hopeless situation.

[BlueTiki]

Maybe the liberals will lobby for a shorter waiting time for mental health than for gun purchases?

[Duchess]

Something has changed in our world. School massacres, movie theater massacres, church massacres, shopping mall massacres, etc. They haven't been around forever. In our little community here we have a thread, ANOTHER PUBLIC SHOOTING, we add to it all the time. Public shootings are prevalent. I once commented to Mo about how scary it must be to live where he does and he kinda laughed and said, but people get shot going to the movies where you live. I've thought about that comment so many times over the months.

[HairOfTheDog]

Thanks cannongal.

I share your frustration with properly treating those with mental illness. There are too many mentally ill people in jail due to lack of more appropriate settings, and then released with no care plan or follow-up. Jails aren't hospitals and get a lot of repeat business that way.

And, even when someone is documented as mentally ill, they can sometimes still buy guns through legal channels because of privacy issues causing states to withhold the medical records from the Federal NICS database. Definitely a big problem.

I did understand that you called MS arrogant rather than ignorant. He's a cocky bastard alright. But, that's not what I was addressing in term of ignorance.

You implied (or I inferred?) that bringing up the issue of gun control was a sign of ignorance in regards to what you consider the real problem, namely untreated mental health problems. I disagree. Addressing the problem of easy gun-accessibility into the wrong hands, without mentioning mental illness, doesn't imply that one is ignoring that mental illness is sometimes a contributor. And vice versa.

Anyway, a full gun control or gun violence discussion needs to address both (and other factors), regardless as to whether it spurs short-term gun sales. But, that's another thread.

P.s. I hope your stepson is doing better these days; tough situation for him and the family.

[blueberryhill]

Hate is multifaceted thing! You can't talk about gun control without discussing mental health and related issues, parenting, etc.
Mental health is so dang abstract, but if you shoot 9 people, you have some kind of mental problem. Albeit it might not meet the definition of mentally ill for court system, i.e., knowing right from wrong.

Mental Health facilities lost favor years ago, because insurance companies only paid a certain amount of bill and was not all inclusive, so patient were discharged when insurance ran out. We have killers and would be killers who walk among us. I have felt for a long time that half of the prison population should be in mental institution and not paroled to kill again.

There is no magic answer, but we know parents pass along hate and it perpetuates itself with each generation. We know that many mental health conditions are inherited and we know that combinations can result in a really "bad seed." However, I have seen parents struggle to help their kid, and they are told, "there is no help available." Very frustrating! There are fewer resources to help people who need it and in just about every case of someone who becomes a mass murderer for example, there have been signs, clues, red flags, etc....but no one was able to stop it, probably because of lack of resources.

This country's love affair with guns is obsessive and must stop. Every day, children die accidentally because of loaded guns. I don't want to be the number 1 country in the World for death by guns. Please spare me the mention of cars, knives, hammers, etc....that is not productive to resolutions. Yes, I know criminals will still get guns, but you need to do some serious research about how tougher gun control does, in fact, reduce crimes committed by guns.

I have a grandson in his 20's who has had some problems. No details for obvious reasons, but he is taking anti-depressants and anxiety meds due to his severe panic attacks...Kids today needing these kind of meds....WTF... I was having fun in college, playing pranks on my friends, dating, etc.....