Cliven Bundy vs. Government land management

[BigMark]

This case was won in juror selection, what a bunch of loons!

[Duchess]

What do you think the outcome would have been if those men had been black?

[BlueTiki]

Each would have received 40 acres and a mule.

And an invitation to the White House.

[Maggot]

Free beer? A ride in AF-1? A baby's arm holding an apple?

[HairOfTheDog]

What do you think the outcome would have been if those men had been black?

I don't think a group of armed black militia men would have been allowed to occupy the federal property and been free to come and go in the first place.

I did not understand why LE didn't employ more aggressive action to end the occupation earlier on, but was glad that they didn't shoot up a bunch of occupiers without expiring other options. When the occupiers were charged with serious crimes, I figured maybe LE had played their hands just right.

In light of the verdict, I'm back to wondering if by allowing those assholes to point loaded weapons at them, and destroy Native grounds, and disrupt an entire community, and giddy up on down to the market anytime they pleased...LE made the mistake of normalizing their criminal actions in the eyes of a significant portion of the potential jury pool.

Anyway, still waiting for more details from the federal prosecutors.

I did just see where one juror made a statement to the effect that the jury didn't necessarily agree with the Bundy gang, but that they felt the prosecutors failed to prove the intent required to support the 'conspiracy' charge. Without 'conspiracy' the charges of 'illegal possession of firearms' also flew out the window because that charge required the occupiers to be in the commission of a crime when they were bearing arms (I think).

The juror indicated that the presence of armed law enforcement at the refuge was more impeding to refuge workers than the presence of the occupiers. He also noted that the jury felt the prosecutors were arrogant and wondered why they hadn't chosen a lesser but more appropriate 'criminal trespass' charge (which I agree should have been charged as well).

Here's the juror's written statement: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standof...regon.html

[Maggot]

Maybe the boneheads at BLM could take over their own campsite and raise awareness on the complete hypocrisy of the white pig honky crackers who are here to put the black man DOWN!

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't think that would be a good use of their time.

I do think the Bureau of Land Management should make a concerted effort to work with all levels of law enforcement to develop a consistent and public policy when it comes to the occupation of federal property and the attempted armed intimidation of law enforcement officers during protests.

I also hope the BLM (or an appropriate government agency) makes an effort to meet with and really listen to the complaints of the ranchers, the Native Americans, the environmentalists, the sovereign militias, etc... It would be impossible to please them them all because they're largely at odds with each other, but it might help to minimize illegal and costly means of protest if some effort was made to understand the issues and the players better.

I feel the same way about LE listening to the complaints of Black Lives Matter protesters (which some LE agencies are thankfully doing).

[Adub]

This verdict is troubling.

[BigMark]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Alcatraz

[HairOfTheDog]

This verdict is troubling.

Yeah, I thought the Oregon Bundy stand-off verdict was troubling too. A Las Vegas judge in the Nevada Bundy stand-off case got it right though.



^ Gerald "Jerry" DeLemus of New Hampshire became the first person sentenced for his ties to the confrontation. Eighteen others are in custody.

DeLemus has been jailed for almost 16 months, so the sentence means the 62-year-old former U.S. Marine will spend about six more years behind bars. DeLemus arrived at the Bundy ranch hours after the tense armed standoff that led to the release of the rancher's cattle and was hailed as a victory in a decades-long fight over government-owned land.

He then spent more than a month in an encampment organizing armed patrols and serving as an intermediary between a self-styled militia and local authorities.

He had been expected to get a six-year sentence after pleading guilty last August to conspiracy to commit an offense against the U.S. and interstate travel in aid of extortion. But Chief U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro in Las Vegas added time after faulting DeLemus for trying to withdraw his pleas. She said she didn't think he accepted responsibility for his actions.

(continued)

[HairOfTheDog]

"I have to say, Mr. DeLemus, that you unfortunately are blinded by the information you choose to believe," she said. Instead of advising Bundy to abide by court orders to pay 20 years of overdue grazing fees or let agents round up his cattle from public land, Judge Navarro said DeLemus became "a bully vigilante, threatening peacekeepers of the community."

DeLemus told the judge that he traveled cross-country with weapons because he'd heard that government snipers surrounded the Bundy home. He said he was willing to "take a bullet" to protect the family. "My concern was that someone would get hurt," he said, choking back tears. "It wasn't the cows. I didn't want that family injured. God will know in the end."

DeLemus cast himself as a martyr to his Christian beliefs and cited a biblical passage that there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends. "I may not have given it out there," he said of the standoff near Bunkerville, about 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas. "I'm giving it now, in jail."

DeLemus once ran for sheriff and mayor in his hometown of Rochester, New Hampshire, and served as a delegate to the Republican National Committee. His wife, Susan DeLemus, a former Republican state lawmaker, sat among Bundy supporters in court, where several waved and thanked DeLemus as he was led away. "We'll make it through this," she said later.

Bundy, two of his sons and two other defendants are due for trial later this year. Six others, including two other Bundy sons, may not be tried until early next year.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bundy-stando...in-prison/

[Midwest Spy]

He's a Marine that went off the deep end and is rightfully paying for his criminal action.

I'm glad he didn't kill anyone.

[Maggot]

He will get 4 yrs with good time minus the 16 months he has already served so he should be back on the street in 2 yrs 8 months. That'll teach him!

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't understand your reasoning or your calculation, Maggot.

DeLemus got sentenced to 87 months in federal prison, or 7.25 years. He's served 1.25 years already. So, he's got 6 years remaining to be served.

According to my understanding and calculation...........if he was given full good behavior credit for every year of his remaining 6-year sentence (max 54 days per year), that would shave off less than a year (324 days); the earliest he could be back on the street would be 5 years.

In any case, he'll have served several years before he's back on the street. And, when he's released as a convicted felon, he won't be able to unsuccessfully run for law enforcement or political office again. He won't be able to legally own firearms either.

If DeLemus has any sense whatsoever (which is questionable), his years of incarceration and the other serious repercussions will definitely teach him about the stupidity of his criminal actions, like taking the law into his hands, threatening and pointing loaded weapons at government and law enforcement officers and trying to use religion to justify it, intentionally violating firearms laws, changing his story and rescinding previous claims of remorse prior to sentencing, etc.

DeLemus was a major backer of Trump and served on one of his coalitions before he was arrested. His Tea Party supporters say they are going to lobby President Trump and AG Sessions to intervene on DeLemus' behalf (for a pardon, or a lighter sentence). Trump and Sessions take a lot of actions which I think display short-sighted and poor judgment, but I'd be very surprised if they were so ignorant as to put their own political asses on the line for Jerry.

[Maggot]

I'm taking 2 years off every 6 for good behavior. depending on the state and the leniency of the parole board. I don't understand how you could think that a criminal with even more violent crimes would not get the same treatment but that's fine too.

[HairOfTheDog]

I'm taking 2 years off every 6 for good behavior. depending on the state and the leniency of the parole board. I don't understand how you could think that a criminal with even more violent crimes would not get the same treatment but that's fine too.

I explained my understanding and calculation to you, Mags.

Maybe you're confused because you're trying to apply state parole board averages?

DeLemus was convicted of federal felonies.

ETA: I just found a federal sentencing calculator on-line. http://federal-prison.org/sentence-calculator/

Jerry's minimum remaining time behind bars comes out to just under 5 years if you punch in '87 months' sentence and '16 months' time already served. It assumes 100% credit for good conduct.

Even if he was able to get 12 months of it deferred to a halfway house, he wouldn't be on the street again until much longer than 2 years and 8 months.

[Maggot]

Bottom line is he should have found a better way to express his displeasure towards useless government intrusion. At least it didn't turn into a Waco or Ruby Ridge.

[HairOfTheDog]

It wasn't useless government intrusion, in my opinion. Not in the least.

But, I do agree that DeLemus and his armed militia should have a found a better way to protest it. DeLemus, the Bundys, and their militia members are lucky the rangers were patient and no one got killed; I agree with that too.

Breaking all kinds of laws and threatening law enforcement officers in attempt to protect the Bundys from being held accountable for 30-years of mooching was asinine and dangerous. Jerry's gonna have a lot of time in the federal pen to contemplate that. I hope Cliven, Ammon, Ryan and the other Bundy militia members end up getting as much or more time for caged self-reflection too.

[HairOfTheDog]

The Bundys skated on the 2014 Nevada stand-off charges.

They're free to gather up militias and threaten LE with loaded weapons again. Not because they were found 'not guilty', but because Nevada Judge Gloria Navarro dismissed the cases against them.

The judge initially declared a mistrial because she said federal prosecutors had blatantly violated the Bundy gang's due process rights and failed to hand over evidence to the Defense.

She skewered the Feds and told them to get their shit together or else. Well, apparently the Feds did not get the message and today Judge Navarro dropped the charges against Cliven, Ammon and Ryan Bundy.



These guys are a menace and should be behind bars, in my opinion. However, they're absolutely entitled to a fair trial. If the federal prosecutors withheld evidence and denied them due process, the judge did the right thing.

Montana militia leader Ryan Payne (bottom right) had already pleaded guilty to conspiracy and faces more than three years in prison. He's trying to withdraw his guilty plea. I'm not sure that's wise, considering Judge Navarro added more time to Jerry DeLemus's sentence when he tried that same tactic.

Refs:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-bund...story.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cliven-bund...las-vegas/

[Duchess]

They must feel like they hit the fuckin' lottery. Whatta world.