ABORTION

[HairOfTheDog]

Did I call it murder or did I call it murder after 10 weeks, look back

I believe everyone should see it as murder after 8-10 weeks

I remember clearly that you told me you're not an anti-abortionist because you don't object to abortion with a cutoff of 1 to 2 months (which equates to 4 to 8 weeks). If you do not consider it murder before then, I assume you don't consider life to begin at conception, obviously.

Since a fetus is not capable of feeling pain nor being viable outside the womb until months after your original 8 week max cutoff, it seemed very random and I asked you, "why 8 weeks?". You chose not to answer.

Then you claimed that you told me your cutoff was 10 weeks. I looked back, as you requested. That's false. You told me 1 to 2 months, which would make your max cutoff 8 weeks, like I recalled. Then you said your cutoff was 12 weeks in another post. Still no reason as to why you thought it became murder after any of your cutoff points.

Now you're telling me that your cutoff is 8 to 10 weeks. I don't know why you changed it, but I understand that you currently think abortion becomes murder before the first trimester, and you think everybody should think so too. I'm always willing to consider people's points and sometimes change my thinking if their rationale is valid. But I never consider changing my thinking because someone says they're right without supporting or explaining their (constantly changing) position.

[Maggot]

Did I call it murder or did I call it murder after 10 weeks, look back

I believe everyone should see it as murder after 8-10 weeks

I remember clearly that you told me you're not an anti-abortionist because you don't object to abortion with a cutoff of 1 to 2 months (which equates to 4 to 8 weeks). If you do not consider it murder before then, I assume you don't consider life to begin at conception, obviously.

Since a fetus is not capable of feeling pain nor being viable outside the womb until months after your original 8 week max cutoff, it seemed very random and I asked you, "why 8 weeks?". You chose not to answer.
I feel that 8-10 weeks is plenty of time to decide what a woman wants (that's debatable though)


Then you claimed that you told me your cutoff was 10 weeks. I looked back, as you requested. That's false. You told me 1 to 2 months, which would make your max cutoff 8 weeks, like I recalled. Then you said your cutoff was 12 weeks in another post. Still no reason as to why you thought it became murder after any of your cutoff points.

Deciding to end a life is a tough decision 8-10 weeks is long enough and I might even concede that 12 weeks would be certainly enough time for the ones that lacked self awareness.

Now you're telling me that your cutoff is 8 to 10 weeks. I don't know why you changed it, but I understand that you currently think abortion becomes murder before the first trimester, and you think everybody should think so too. I'm always willing to consider people's points and sometimes change my thinking if their rationale is valid. But I never consider changing my thinking because someone says they're right without supporting or explaining their (constantly changing) position.

Its really not a cut and dry topic and I may at my discretion "change my mind"

[HairOfTheDog]

Sure thing Maggot. Almost everyone changes their minds on some issues. That's not a problem.

Why you couldn't simply acknowledge "changing your mind" several times in the course of just a couple of days and instead suggested that my memory was faulty and I needed to "look back" is strange to me. I can't read your mind to know when or why it changes; I rely on your words.

I understand that it's not cut and dry to you. It is for many people who understand the issue. They either don't give a shit or don't have an opinion in regards to cutoffs. Or, they don't oppose abortion at any point because they think it's solely the right of the woman to decide. Or they oppose all abortion because they believe life begins at conception and the woman has no right to decide. Or, they oppose abortion at the point at which the fetus might be able to feel pain. Or, they oppose abortion at the point at which the fetus could survive on its own outside of the womb. Some believe exceptions should be made past those cutoffs for one or more of the following: fetal abnormality, health or death risk to the woman, rape, and incest.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter why or which of your seemingly random cut-offs (in regards to how long a woman has to "make up her mind" and when she no longer has the right to choose what she does with her body) suits your fancy from day to day; 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 10 weeks, 8 - 10 weeks... I was just trying to understand your views. But, what you think, and what you think other people should therefore think, doesn't impact the fact that it's perfectly legal for women to have abortions well beyond any of those points in every state in the country.

[Blindgreed1]

I believe the numbers on late term abortions are fairly low and usually performed in the case where the fetus has already died or the mother's life is in danger. I haven't researched the stats but that's what a friend of mine told me who works in the neo at a local hospital.

[username]

Honestly, I don't understand why this would be considered unreasonable.

How long does it take to determine you don't want the parasite growing inside you?

That blueberry is quickly becoming a salamander . . .

Yeah, I don't consider it unreasonable (excluding those 16 week tests that science should figure out how to conduct earlier), I'm with Mags in that I wouldn't mind drawing the line even earlier (and like Mags, I don't have a hard number in mind yet--somewhere between 8-12 weeks, possibly).

However, it's kind of interesting to me...I'm only on my second cup of coffee (and gotta run) but they want the physician to make every effort to abort the baby in such a way that it lives....? Am I reading that right?

[Maggot]

Sure thing Maggot. Almost everyone changes their minds on some issues. That's not a problem.

Why you couldn't simply acknowledge "changing your mind" several times in the course of just a couple of days and instead suggested that my memory was faulty and I needed to "look back" is strange to me. I can't read your mind to know when or why it changes; I rely on your words.

I understand that it's not cut and dry to you. It is for many people who understand the issue. They either don't give a shit or don't have an opinion in regards to cutoffs. Or, they don't oppose abortion at any point because they think it's solely the right of the woman to decide. Or they oppose all abortion because they believe life begins at conception and the woman has no right to decide. Or, they oppose abortion at the point at which the fetus might be able to feel pain. Or, they oppose abortion at the point at which the fetus could survive on its own outside of the womb. Some believe exceptions should be made past those cutoffs for one or more of the following: fetal abnormality, health or death risk to the woman, rape, and incest.

What about the woman's responsibility towards the baby's life and knowing full well she is pregnant and not making a decision until the last minute. Rape and the reason a woman waits until after 8-10 weeks to get an abortion escapes me. I can see incest as the girl would not know what was going on in an adult frame of mind. But you are talking about the fringe element that is maybe 5% at the very best. You are splitting hairs. I get that you are pro-abortion and that it should be the choice of the woman at any time during a pregnancy.


Anyway, it really doesn't matter why or which of your seemingly random cut-offs (in regards to how long a woman has to "make up her mind" and when she no longer has the right to choose what she does with her body) suits your fancy from day to day; 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 10 weeks, 8 - 10 weeks... I was just trying to understand your views. But, what you think, and what you think other people should therefore think, doesn't impact the fact that it's perfectly legal for women to have abortions well beyond any of those points in every state in the country.

In my mind I believe abortion is a tough decision and that 8-10 weeks is long enough to decide. To me life begins at conception but I also believe in this modern world that through medical advances we have the ability to change as I realize that life is complicated and accidents happen quite a bit more often today. I use the term accident as I would use uneducated, lazy, stupid in the intelligence portion of all parties involved in the our ability to create and end life.

[Blindgreed1]

I've never been pregnant so I can't really say if 8-10 weeks is enough time. I do however know a fat woman who didn't know she was pregnant until it was too late to get an abortion. She gave it up for adoption because she was a heavy binge drinker so somebody got a FAS baby.

[sally]

What's up with all those fat women not knowing they're pregnant until a 10 lb. infant drops out of their vagina? All 3 times I was pregnant I knew it around 8 weeks. Even this last time when I had my tubes tied for 13 years it eventually dawned on me that I was pregnant and not sick with cancer which was my first thought.

[HairOfTheDog]

Maggot,

Again, you can label me anything you want Maggot. That's your thing and I don't mind.

I've already clearly explained my views and answered questions without hesitation or evasiveness. No hair-splitting from me.

According to what you just posted, you appear to be basing your opinions on how long YOU think it should take women to make a decision of that magnitude, rather than on the development of the fetus.

I know that all women are different, as are their circumstances. Some might be on birth control and have no reason to suspect that they might be pregnant until they miss a period, by which time they could already be past 8 weeks when they go to get tested. That happens frequently. Some might already have children and a job that would be jeopardized if they went full term and gave birth, so they and their partners need time to weigh the various options and impacts before making that hard choice. Etc...

Sometimes people need more than a couple of weeks to decide between their options so they know they're making the best choice, whatever choice that may be. It's a big decision. It shouldn't be rushed before the 20^th week --the earliest point that most doctors believe a fetus could possibly feel pain -- just because people who have no personal stake in the decision think women should operate on their timeline and according to their religious or moral beliefs. That's bullshit. That's what I think.

I wouldn't be so presumptuous or self-righteous as to impose such restrictions on strangers without a thoughtful and balanced reason, such as pain to the fetus or viability outside the womb.

The percentage of abortions past 21 weeks is less than 2%. Past 20 weeks would also be a low percentage. Some of that relatively small number might be lazy, stupid and unintelligent - I wouldn't know and it's irrelevant. If you're basing your cut-off position on punishing those such women rather than a reasonable & thoughtful criteria, you better hope nobody narrowly restricts your right to decide something major as a form of punishment against self-righteous, ignorant, and presumptuous males.

Ya bitch!

[username]

Re-reading that legislation HotD posted, I gather they're saying if the abortion is post 20 weeks and meets the criteria defined (potential injury to the mother, a reported rape or incest), then the Dr. is obligated to try to deliver the baby alive.

In the case of incest or rape, it's pretty clear if the woman is requesting an abortion after 20 weeks, she clearly doesn't want the infant so if it's born alive, I guess it's likely going straight up for adoption? On the one hand, I can see the mother possibly not wanting to have her "bio" child out there with no say in the matter. On the other hand, the legislation sort of takes care of that because the incest or rape has to have been reported to even meet the exception so you'd think the mother would have known, back when she reported it, that she'd have to make a decision pronto.

Fascinating how they cover the bases here. Unfortunately, I think incest is widely under reported so I would expect that many a young girl who gets pregnant by incest (hoping that's rare) will NOT meet the exception and therefore will not be afforded the option to abort. While I feel a little badly about the potential young woman (girl?) in this situation, I think, after 20 weeks, I'm more with the bun in the oven on this.

[HairOfTheDog]

(and like Mags, I don't have a hard number in mind yet--somewhere between 8-12 weeks, possibly).

I'm trying to understand why people who don't object to all abortion would object to an abortion prior to the earliest point a fetus might be able to feel pain and want to reduce women's time to choose by ²⁄₃ or 1/2.

From 24 weeks under the current law down to 8 to 12 weeks -- why? Not even the religious conservative GOP has a basis to support cutting the time by more than 4 weeks (which is a lot) down to 20 weeks.

[Maggot]

IDK HOTD maybe because this is what a 20 week old fetus looks like.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yes, I've seen the pics Maggot.

Unless it's abnormal, the fetus looks a lot like that at 20 weeks regardless as to whether the woman is 'colored' or white, regardless as to how long the woman knew she was pregnant, regardless as to whether the woman was raped, regardless as to whether the woman is likely to die in childbirth, regardless of the woman's intelligence or laziness level, and regardless as to how many Jews were killed in Nazi Germany.

None of which has anything to do with why you one would choose 8 - 10 (or 12) weeks as the cutoff, thereby reducing women's opportunity to legally abort by ¹⁄₂ to 2/3; long before the point of fetal pain capacity or viability outside the womb.

If the pic is your way of saying that you think women should be allotted much less time to choose/get abortions because the more developed the fetus the more sad the sight makes you, regardless of the fact that it can't survive on its own outside the womb and can't feel pain, at least that's relevant and honest -- and I understand the emotion.


^ This is a fetus between 8 and 12 weeks. It's just as sad for me to imagine it being aborted and I personally wouldn't make that choice. But, I don't believe that my emotions and circumstances should dictate the rights of any/all other women.

[Blindgreed1]

IDK HOTD maybe because this is what a 20 week old fetus looks like.

I did not know that 20 week old fetuses looked like Udo Dirkschneider.

[username]

HotD is going to make me become an anti abortion nut!!! I wish I hadn't seen that...I'd prefer it if they still looked like a little blackberry or something. :(

I sincerely hope scientists are 100% certain that little thing doesn't feel pain.

[HairOfTheDog]

They aren't sure if it can feel pain before 18 - 20 weeks, but they are sure that it can't before then.

I know the pics evoke a lot of emotion, even from early on in the pregnancy. But, that's the reality.

If you're forming an opinion or weighing in on the matter, you should have as much information as possible.

I don't like abortion emotionally, but I understand it and support a woman's right to choose it up until viability or fetal pain capacity.

I'm not religious and it's just as emotional for me to see unwanted children neglected, abused, exploited, killed, hungry, etc...and women forced to give birth when they're not equipped for pregnancy or motherhood.

It's an intellectual position for me, not an emotional one.

[Maggot]

If the pic is your way of saying that you think women should be allotted much less time to choose/get abortions because the more developed the fetus the more sad the sight makes you, regardless of the fact that it can't survive on its own outside the womb and can't feel pain, at least that's relevant and honest -- and I understand the emotion.


No...........That is not why. I believe that 20 weeks is plenty of time to make a decision. The picture is just an example of a 20 week old child. I personally think 8-10 weeks is long enough but would love to see 24 weeks go to 20 weeks legally.
If your issue is that women have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies that's fine also I can respect that although I don't think that's right. There are 2 people that are in the scenario. One with the ability to choose and 1 with no voice. Hopefully that clarifies my argument.

[Blindgreed1]

They aren't sure if it can feel pain before 18 - 20 weeks, but they are sure that it can't before then.

I know the pics evoke a lot of emotion, even from early on in the pregnancy. But, that's the reality.

If you're forming an opinion or weighing in on the matter, you should have as much information as possible.

I don't like abortion emotionally, but I understand it and support a woman's right to choose it up until viability or fetal pain capacity.

I'm not religious and it's just as emotional for me to see unwanted children neglected, abused, exploited, killed, hungry, etc...and women forced to give birth when they're not equipped for pregnancy or motherhood.

It's an intellectual position for me, not an emotional one.

well said HOtD.

[Maggot]

They aren't sure if it can feel pain before 18 - 20 weeks, but they are sure that it can't before then.


I don't think that's what you meant to say.

[HairOfTheDog]

It's what I meant to say, but very poorly worded.

At 20 weeks is when the possibility of fetal pain capacity exists according to credible doctors, and thus the cutoff in the Unborn Child Protection Act. The fetus might not be able to feel pain, but there is credible medical opinion that it might.

There are a few doctors who have guesstimated that there might maybe be some possibility at 18 weeks earliest, and a couple of conservative state lawmakers have used that to set their state's cutoff at 18 weeks.