Ramps to build pyramids debunked

[crash]

However, I'm admittedly ignorant in regards to ancient engineering, so I don't think my agreement means much. If I was qualified to counter a point of yours with which I disagreed, I'd put it out there in a heartbeat.

I started this trek six years ago when someone posted a picture of G1 on the old Collectors Universe open forum. It was an arial shot with a bus at the bottom to provide scale. I had never realized just how enormous this thing is and knew instinctively that it wasn't built with ramps. Within seconds I figured it must have been built with water filled counterweights and assumed five minutes of googling would prove that impossible but instead I just found more and more confirmation.

One of the most surprising things is that there are no engineers actually studying this thing. Sure, there are engineers around but they are paid by the Egyptologists to work out how they could be built with ramps. There's huge expertise working on it but access to data is strictly limited by what the powers that be are willing to measure. Rather than simply gathering all the available evidence they are force feeding everybody very incomplete data and information. Flinders Petrie essentially invented archaeology and Egyptology but he would be aghast to see what's going on now. Where he measured everything that could be measured with 19^th century technology very little modern technology is being employed and mostly they are looking for gold and ramps rather than simply measuring what exists. Everyone is starved for information.

Of course it's not impossible I'm wrong across the board but I have literally thousands of data points that all point at water. Many of these points are nothing but the words of the builders which for some reason I don't understand, no one else can understand. But these words are internally consistent and relatively comprehensive as they apply to ritual associated with the ascension ceremony. It is largely these words that have pointed me to much of the physical evidence, but it's also the physical evidence leading to an understanding of the words.

Everything fits hand in glove.

Of course the worst fit in the theory is that there is no obvious remnant of CO2 geyser activity in the region. I've mostly not addressed this specific argument only because the builders suggested why this is and the answer is so astounding that modern people will not accept it. There are just too many things already for people to get used to without a reinterpretation of the foundational beliefs of religions. Essentially the implication is that religion is misunderstood but built on a far more substantial foundation than the concept of ramps. As far as geyser evidence goes though, it should be remembered that the Giza Plateau is the most heavily disturbed by humans site on the face of the planet. Everything has come and gone except the pyramids themselves and there are likely older structures subsumed by the pyramids.

I've been losing a lot of facts that aren't relevant to my theory. So it's getting more difficult for me to arrange the pieces in any other way. There are still some gaps but I believe that these could be filled quite quickly if the scholars started working on them. It's funny how the mind works. It's funnier how much trouble we have communicating.

It's downright strange how other people don't see the meaning in the PT. It all looks like plain English to me and everyone else sees gobblety gook. Of course I've read it about 180 times now and spent thousands of hours researching virtually every word and each and every plant and animal mentioned. It doesn't bother me at all when they say the stones flew like the fledglings of swallows;

http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/37992519

or that the counterweight ([]nw-boat) was shaped like the dorsal carapace of a grasshopper;

tl;dr..

But..the few bits I've skimmed over give me some glaring questions.

What do the 'powers that be' stand to gain from withholding any information they have paid an engineer to find?

If it was obvious glaringly obvious to you within seconds that they didn't build ramps, what is the basis of proof for this? Because to me, all you have thorn up is a whole bunch of your own assumptions. And to me, an assumption is only an assumption until you can provide some conclusive proof of your assumption.

You say ramps are innefficient due to the high friction and high cost. Friction is negated in this argument because it can be overcome i.e. wooden rollers, lubrication of the surfaces in contact. I'm pretty sure the high cost is also inconsequential when you're building a pyramid..

Many of these points are nothing but the words of the builders which for some reason I don't understand, no one else can understand. But these words are internally consistent and relatively comprehensive as they apply to ritual associated with the ascension ceremony. It is largely these words that have pointed me to much of the physical evidence, but it's also the physical evidence leading to an understanding of the words.

^ You need to explain this a little clearer. It conveys nothing to anyone, but you, other than you don't understand what the words say, but you are guessing their meaning and basing an assumption on them.


...and, dude? What do you have against ramps?

[IMaDick]

Ramps of sand would require retaining walls.

go ahead and do your own math, but the ramp that would be needed to reach the top of the tallest pyramid would have to be how long to be a 6% grade?

[cladking]

But..the few bits I've skimmed over give me some glaring questions.

What do the 'powers that be' stand to gain from withholding any information they have paid an engineer to find?

I have no reason to believe they are witholding any information at all. They merely refuse to gather it. For instance my theory predicts there are caves at Giza and the ancient name for the place means "Mouth of Caves". Hawass claimed he knew everything there was to know about the Giza Plateau and there were no caves. After he was led into a cave on international television (Chasing Mummies), he had the cave sealed off and it's never been excavated, studied, or even mapped. They hacven't even done infrared imaging of the Great Pyramid after all these years. Nothing is being done so nothing is being withheld.

If it was obvious glaringly obvious to you within seconds that they didn't build ramps, what is the basis of proof for this? Because to me, all you have thorn up is a whole bunch of your own assumptions. And to me, an assumption is only an assumption until you can provide some conclusive proof of your assumption.

Of course you're right but the fact still is that the builders left a work that literally sayus the Gods built the pyramids and one of those Gods was a cool effervescent column of water that tossed violently on the Giza Plateau. The fact still exists that the physical evidence supports the contentions of the builders.

You say ramps are innefficient due to the high friction and high cost. Friction is negated in this argument because it can be overcome i.e. wooden rollers, lubrication of the surfaces in contact. I'm pretty sure the high cost is also inconsequential when you're building a pyramid..

There's far more loss than merely friction. There are the 50,000,000 man trips to 120' altitude that's just wasted as they descend. There's the cost and effort of building ramps. There's the huge cost and greatly increased number of man trips to place rollers in front of the stone.

Ramps are nothing but a silly romantic notion that are contradicted by the evidence. They are silly not because they are so hugely inefficient (which they are) but because it would be far easier to just have a team on top pulling them up and this is where the evidence all points. That they were pulled up (but by counterweights).

Many of these points are nothing but the words of the builders which for some reason I don't understand, no one else can understand. But these words are internally consistent and relatively comprehensive as they apply to ritual associated with the ascension ceremony. It is largely these words that have pointed me to much of the physical evidence, but it's also the physical evidence leading to an understanding of the words.

^ You need to explain this a little clearer. It conveys nothing to anyone, but you, other than you don't understand what the words say, but you are guessing their meaning and basing an assumption on them.

What I mean is that I'm probably the only one who understands the PT. This work is deconstructed and interpreted by Egyptologists to death. I believe it means exactly what it says and that can be deduced by discovering the referents for words in context. For instance they use the word "henu-boat" many times and each time it gains meaning from context. Once it has sufficient meaning from context that is the definition. Henu boat is not a river going vessel nor does it sail the skys like Egypotology believes. It is the counterweight overseen by the Goddess Isis. "Osiris in his name of Seker tows the earth by means of balance in the henu boat.". It's just this simple. Osiris is the geyser but becomes Seker as the ballast and the wdn.t offering for the farmers when he descends. It's all right there in plain English but for some reason I can't begin to understand no one else understands. I can't say it any more clearly; The PT means exactly what it says.

It's like being in the Twilight Zone. ...Or remember "Shatterday"?

...and, dude? What do you have against ramps?

I've heard countless Egyptologists start an argument with the statement they mustta used ramps and follow this with pages of argument that concludes with they used ramps. In between are various ways to say they mustta used ramps because they were simpletons and stupid. I'm pretty tired of having to shoot down the same baseless assumptions over and over again.

[cladking]

Ramps of sand would require retaining walls.

go ahead and do your own math, but the ramp that would be needed to reach the top of the tallest pyramid would have to be how long to be a 6% grade?

Off the top of my head it would be more than 1.1 miles. There is no direction from the pyramid that wouldn't require enormous amounts of bridging to make such a long ramp. The ramp would consume ten times the volume of the pyramid to build. It would require most of the stones to be dragged more than a quarter mile away from the pyramid before getting to the ramp.

Ramps are debunked and no Egyptologist has yet engaged me in the argument. Even wiki has changed their entry from they mustta used ramps to many believe they used ramps. Baby steps for now.

In twenty years people will point at the pyramids (and Egyptologists) and laugh that people used to believe in ramps. The longer they choose to ignore this the sillier they're going to look.

[crash]

What I mean is that I'm probably the only one who understands the PT.

Ohhhhh.... I get it now. Thanks.

[cladking]

Here are some examples of what I mean;

1405a. To say: The earth is high under the sky by (means of) thine arms, Tefnut.

From context "Tefnut" can be seen to be the Goddess of "Downward". She is always the Goddess of Downward and nothing else. Her name probably derives from the sound of the water falling from the geyser so is often associated in the PT with water or falling water. Egyptologists think she is "moisture" because the PT says that she brings water. "The arms" of a God is their ability to act at a distance. Again this is by context. "Fingers" are their ability to manipulate, "Hands" their ability to grasp, and "Arms" the ability to act at a distance. This is always true just as it's always true their shoulders provide strenght and their feet or wings locomotion. These things are consistent and are used repeatedly. The pyramid was a part of the earth. It is always described as a part of the earth (Geb the God of the earth). This line simply says the earth is made higher (under the sky) by means of the ability of downward to act at a distance by means of her arms. The counterweight falls and the stones fly up to make the earth higher.

How much plainer can it be. Maybe they should have drawn a picture. Oh wait they did. They drew millions of pictures and they aere consiustent with this as well but people don't understand egyptian projection. The Gods were created in man's image but are reflective of nature. The one thing we should be interpreting is the one thing we take at face value.

1932 (Nt. 763). He, he is a pyramid, he protects;

I just don't know how much more plainly they could have said this. It wraps up everything in a nbice pretty bow but Egyptologists interpret the hell out of it (Utt #666). Not it doesn't say the dead king lives forever as a mummy under the pyramid. It says the pyramid is the dead king. It says this consistently inplain English over and over again. Egyptologists don't accept literal. They project their own modern ideas back on the pyramid builders and they sincerely believe these people were stinky footed bumpkins but always add "not that there's anything wrong with that".

This just isn't rocket science. Anyone could have discovered it but the gods must have it in for me. (not that I'm complaining mind you)

[crash]

*sigh*

To me, that's just another whole bunch of probablys and assumptions. Ramps don't have to be straight. The cost argument is a non-issue. Your argument is based on some text you profess to not understand but claim you are the only person in the world that does. You've been arguing about this all over the internet for years

I think you're mildly autistic with maybe borderline Aspergers. Your mind is singly focused and won't be swayed from a point you can't get past.

And really, I don't care. In 20 years, 99% of people will still point at the pyramids and say "shit, they're cool" without caring about how they were built. Of the one's that do, 99% of them won't be worried that it's still an inconclusive mystery.

Anyway, sir, goodluck with your journey, I hope you find peace with it.

[cladking]

And really, I don't care.

You've a right to your opinions but in my opinion this one will prove entirely wrong If I'm proven correct. It's easy not to care about how the great pyramids were built. Incredibly this is an opinion shared by the majority of Egyptologists. They, however, assume it must have been ramps and the details bore them because they're more interested in the superstitious bumpkins they've created by their interpretations.

But herein is why people will care if I'm proven right; it will prove almost everyone wrong about almost everything. Even what it means to be human will simply fall by the wayside. Religions will collapse just as surely as atheism when the basis of these beliefs is exposed. No field outside of math will be unaffected.

Of course I might be wrong but if I'm right there will be very few who don't care. It will take time for this to be seen but the fact is that everything is founded on ancient Egypt and mountains of assumptions. Western civilization will be seen to be founded on anciernt Egypt and the premise that the ancients were superstitious. This permeates philosophy and even the very underpinnings of science itself. I don't believe the effects can be overstated though they won't all be obvious except in retrospect.

I personally don't believe logical coherence can ever be random or accidental. Even the Gods themselves are never apparently logically coherant and might not be at all. Logic is probably a human construct founded primarily on mathmatical principles so it does a wonderful job of modeling the real world and providing predictions when coupled with knowledge or facts. But only mental processes are beholden to logic and logic is a very weak tool to understand the world. The fact that the PT seems to be logically consistent suggests that this was the intended meaning. It suggests the world is not the way modern man percieves it. It suggests that the ancients were scientists and we are the superstitious bumpkins. We have to reconcile the facts with our beliefs.

I'd suggest you're just whistling past the graveyard but there's no graveyard.

[Cracker]

You think there is one idea that will trump all others, clad?

I always assumed the fact that matter is solid state energy was the Big Idea.

[cladking]

You think there is one idea that will trump all others, clad?

I always assumed the fact that matter is solid state energy was the Big Idea.

I don't know. Someday we might learn that chaotic behavior is just harmonic behavior on the wrong time scale and the universe is truly rational but I'm coming to believe that the universe and reality are not rational. Chaos is predictable in the very short term but it probably is not in the long term. We'll never be able to understand the small scale and long term. I believe the ancient scientists would agree.

Human needs to date haven't required this but as the man made world gets more complicated it likely will.

There are a lot of big things coming up in the next century like machine intelligence and we had better be prepared to understand and control them. I think it might be important to understand ourselves and our humanity to better understand what it means when intellect is obsolete. Understanding our past might be vital to understanding the present and understanding in the future. I'm not certain we can continue to survive in an increasingly fragile world with increasingly more beligerance on an international and individual level. The changes we will be subjected to will not prove beneficial in this regard. The future is always in the hands of the present but it seems no people have ever been less concerned with it than our civilization. The situation calls for more concern than ever and we give it less.

I think if I'm right about the pyramid it might help because these peoples' primary concern was the future. To a fairly small extent the pyramid was a time capsule for us. They didn't foresee the death of the Gods but they did foresee the Gods' birth in machines. They are intended to be understood by these new Gods possibly. Of course the main reason was to help protect the people of Egypt eternally and I hope they're still working.

[Cracker]

Someday we might learn that chaotic behavior is just harmonic behavior on the wrong time scale

Lorenz butterfly.

[IMaDick]

Some day we may learn that we don't know what chaotic behavior is or for that matter ordered behavior.

They are both theories.

all order is in reality is controlled chaos, and all chaos is is a lack of personally influenced action.

what you do may seem chaotic to me while what you don't do may seem like ordered ommission to you.

[Cracker]

Some day we may learn that we don't know what chaotic behavior is or for that matter ordered behavior.

Um, we are pretty solid with the ordered behavior.

[IMaDick]

Some day we may learn that we don't know what chaotic behavior is or for that matter ordered behavior.

Um, we are pretty solid with the ordered behavior.

Bullshit, you are solid with your behavior and I am solid with mine and yet we disagree, it's chaos.

ordered behavior is a theory based "once again" in personally influenced action.

It has no universal reality.

[cladking]

Some day we may learn that we don't know what chaotic behavior is or for that matter ordered behavior.

Yes. Certainly.

It's obvious that if chaos exists and is displayed in some things thatit probably exists in all things. I didn't phrase it well when I suggested "that chaotic behavior is just harmonic behavior on the wrong time scale". I should have also suggested that the reverse is equally true or that they are both manifestations of the same things.

I believe they are both manifestations of the breakdown of physical law on the smallest scale. Perhaps this too can be phrased better; on the small scale physical law appears to break down as quantum effects begin to show up. On the massive scale it doesn't matter how many units of space, time, enery, gravity, etc exist but on the tiniest of scales it makes an enormous difference if you have one unit of gravity or two. The number is determined by the cross sectional area of the event and pure chance. This chance introduces chaotic behavior and given sufficient time chaotic behavior manifests even in harmonic events like orbits.

I believe that what determines whether something behaves chaotically or harmonically is the number of variables that effects something on the massive scales. Discount all the tiny variables like the grvity of Pluto on Boston and simply count the things that do affect something there. If the number of such variables is odd then the cyclic behavior will be harmonic and if it's even it will be chaotic.

I always wanted to study this stuff when I retired but life has interfered. The pyramids and other stuff is good enough though.

They are both theories.

all order is in reality is controlled chaos, and all chaos is is a lack of personally influenced action.

what you do may seem chaotic to me while what you don't do may seem like ordered ommission to you.

I'm not certain I follow. Perhaps you're sure I didn't.

[cladking]

Bullshit, you are solid with your behavior and I am solid with mine and yet we disagree, it's chaos.

I can't help but think you're describing language confusion here.

Of course it might be simple difference of opinion but even differences of opinion can be the result of language. The language was butchered at the tower of babel and we've all been using confused language ever since. This is one of the things that computers will be able to help us overcome.

This won't be easy if we just want a translator for two people using symbolic language but there should be short cuts and learning by individuals to help mitigate the cacophony of confusion with which we are competing to not be understood.

It's madness everywhere and nobody seems to notice. I can't help wonder how many wars are primarily the result of simple misunderstanding.

[cladking]

Chaotic behavior can be remarkably beautiful. It's hard to see than the cyclical sunset or to hear than a symphony but there is always beauty in everything if seen from the proper perspective.

[Cracker]

Nothing is random. It is The Way, whether you see it or not.

That graph was weather data, clad.

[IMaDick]

Everything is random, it's The Way, whether you organize it or not.

Everything you see as organized was pulled randomly from chaos, it's physical make up does not change just because it is pigeon holed in an orderly fashion.

[Cracker]

At the heart of it all is the singular idea that how you wiggle determines your fate. If you stop moving for too long, you don't exist. Simple, really.