Happy Days Happy Dance / FAST & FURIOUS ARMS DEAL

[HairOfTheDog]

I'll keep watching this unfold, Dick. I too am interested to see where it goes and hope that whoever's responsible if any governmental criminal activity is uncovered is held accountable. If there is an effort to supress the truth for nefarious reasons, I agree that we may learn little more in present time. But, the truth behind these "political scandals" often comes out later, whether that truth works for or against those originally suspected (Watergate, Whitewater, Iran Contra, etc...).

I truly hope there is no governmental cover-up/conspiracy involved here.

[HairOfTheDog]

A few new articles and opinion pieces have been published over the last couple of days.

Snipped:
the executive branch has articulated a strong and highly specific reason for withholding the documents at issue: Forced disclosure to Congress of internal deliberations concerning how best to interact with Congress would undermine the executive's capacity to function as a co-equal branch. It would undermine the prospects for future candid deliberations about interactions with the other institutions of government.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/21/opinion/sh...index.html

I understand that the documents being requested by Issa and the Oversight Committee are not related to the actual F&F operation (they already have those docs). The additional docs being requested are those that deal with the Executive Branch's strategies on how to most effectively interface with Congress on the matter. It's "deliberate privilege". IF it is confirmed that all of the F&F operational documentation requested has been handed over, I believe the privilege is valid and the contempt allegations will not be supported unless Issa and team can show some criminal activity or breach by Holder and Obama as operatives in F&F. I don't think that will happen.

Imo, one branch of government should not be required to turn over its internal strategy notes to another. That would inhibit brainstorming, strategizing, and open communication. It could also result in lack of minutes/record keeping within departments and promote miscommunication (and possibly serious errors) between those working together on large teams. If there were any allegations that Holder had instructed the F&F team members to perform illegal activities (as was the case with Nixon and Watergate), I could see the contempt charges being supported and moving towards Holder's resignation or impeachment. I don't see that as the case here based on the latest reports. JMO.

Still watching...

[Jimbone]

If I recall correctly, what is being requested now has to do with the committee trying to find out why it was lied to. Remember that Justice said for months they knew nothing about F&F, and then had to admit they were lying and did in fact know about it. That is what opened the door for the committee to pursue new lines of investigation.

This is a self-made crisis for the administration. They should have turned over the documents and not played games. Holder should have resigned, Obama should have moved on, and lower heads should have rolled for what has happened.

Instead, as usual, they are doubling down and hoping it goes away.

[IMaDick]

Hot D are you saying that there were internal discussions about fast furious between the justice dept and the President?

Was this before or after the death of the agent?

was this before or after their denial of any knowledge of the operation?

Did they see it on TV first?


spin and damage control just like I said it would be.

we have as facts that Both denied any knowledge, that congress asked for documents, and that the justice dept stalled until the end and that the President has extended Executive privilege to an appointee.

Where does executive privilege stop again? maybe you can clear that question up for me?

[HairOfTheDog]

If I recall correctly, what is being requested now has to do with the committee trying to find out why it was lied to. Remember that Justice said for months they knew nothing about F&F, and then had to admit they were lying and did in fact know about it. That is what opened the door for the committee to pursue new lines of investigation.

This is a self-made crisis for the administration. They should have turned over the documents and not played games. Holder should have resigned, Obama should have moved on, and lower heads should have rolled for what has happened.

Instead, as usual, they are doubling down and hoping it goes away.

That's my understanding as well, Jimbone. It's not about the F&F operation itself, it's about the backtracking on having no knowledge of the operation.

I don't know if Holder should have already resigned or not. But, I really don't think he's going to resign over it and I don't think the Oversight Committee will get approval to impeach. Actually, it's too risky to try at this time, imo. If Issa and team can't definitively prove any criminal activity or breach of duties on Holders part, it will look exactly like what Holder and Obama are claiming; that this is just a Republican smear campaign. That could really backfire for the Republicans so close to election.

I'm still watching and not fully convinced of anything. I think more will come out in the next couple of weeks as Holder continues to be put on the hotseat with the contempt allegations.

[SIXFOOTERsez]

This thread seems like a good place for this, I was on the way back to the office yesterday and pulles up behind this guy, he seems to know whats up.

[HairOfTheDog]

Hot D are you saying that there were internal discussions about fast furious between the justice dept and the President?

Was this before or after the death of the agent?

was this before or after their denial of any knowledge of the operation?

Did they see it on TV first?


spin and damage control just like I said it would be.

we have as facts that Both denied any knowledge, that congress asked for documents, and that the justice dept stalled until the end and that the President has extended Executive privilege to an appointee.

Where does executive privilege stop again? maybe you can clear that question up for me?

I cannot answer those questions for you without doing research, Dick. I wish I could, because you know I'm an accomodating sort and I aim to please. This time, how 'bout you give me the answers that you already have rather than quizzing me and sending me out fishing? I like quizzes and fishing, but just so we don't get into a rut and can keep the spark alive, a little something different.

I'm all ears. I am interested in your points.

[IMaDick]

asked and answered.

A few new articles and opinion pieces have been published over the last couple of days.

and a few older articles that leave little to the imagination.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/...orygallery

[HairOfTheDog]

asked and answered.

A few new articles and opinion pieces have been published over the last couple of days.

and a few older articles that leave little to the imagination.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/...orygallery

Thanks, Dick. I've been following along for a while. Will re-read this one you recommend.

So, I know you think that Holder should be ousted and Obama should be held accountable for lying. Do you think that the contempt charges will stick and that Holder will actually resign or be impeached?

[HairOfTheDog]

Good article gallery in the LA Times. Thanks, Dick. I'd read many of them, but had missed some. I agree that in totality, it looks very much like Holder lied when first denying knowledge of the Fast & Furious operation (rather than having been misinformed, as later contended). Those three ATF members who were involved in F&F do seem to have been promoted based on their new titles and positions, though the ATF insists they were lateral transfers. Again, it all smells very fishy and the known trail of emails that contradict Holder and Obama's original claims of "no knowledge" is concerning.

Still, I think the privilege will stand and I don't think the House could get enough Democrats in the Senate to vote for Holder's impeachment. The contempt citation therefore wouldn't mean much.

This article I read today most closely coincides with my current thoughts on what will and won't happen as the result of the Oversight Committee's probe and contempt threat. It also has some interesting points related to the historical Consitutionality of executive privilege and contempt.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...-talk.html

[Jimbone]

I'm not sure how privilege can stand in the fact of dishonesty... but I'm sure they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep asses covered as long as possible.

There is a working fire under all of that smoke billowing through the stonewall. This isn't about fighting for the principle of executive privilege. It's about covering up a career ending mistake and failure.

And you can take that to the bank.

[HairOfTheDog]

I'm not sure how privilege can stand in the fact of dishonesty... but I'm sure they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep asses covered as long as possible.

There is a working fire under all of that smoke billowing through the stonewall. This isn't about fighting for the principle of executive privilege. It's about covering up a career ending mistake and failure.

And you can take that to the bank.

It may well be about covering up a career ending mistake, but the Republican risk of pushing and failing only 5 months from election and the nature of deliberative executive privilege will result in Issa and team failing to get a resignation or impeachment, imo. But, I won't say you can take my opinion on that to the bank because I think there is enough valid cause for a hearing.

I am definitely interested in watching how this all plays out.

[Jimbone]

You're a smart girl. You know what is really going on here... if there was a true executive privilege claim, they would have used it immediately and not at the last minute. Throwing it out there now is a stall tactic - and I'm not sure under a court challenge the executive privilege claim will survive (if it gets that far) because laws were obviously broken.

You know - as well as everyone else with a brain - that this was a class A, all hands, fuck up that went all the way to the top of Justice. And maybe further?

What we are watching now is political theater at its worst. And Brian Terry's parents have a front row seat.

[HairOfTheDog]

You're a smart girl. You know what is really going on here... if there was a true executive privilege claim, they would have used it immediately and not at the last minute. Throwing it out there now is a stall tactic - and I'm not sure under a court challenge the executive privilege claim will survive (if it gets that far) because laws were obviously broken.

You know - as well as everyone else with a brain - that this was a class A, all hands, fuck up that went all the way to the top of Justice. And maybe further?

What we are watching now is political theater at its worst. And Brian Terry's parents have a front row seat.

I know what I think based on everything I've read/watched and my assessment thereof. But, I'm very much looking at the motives and strategies of both sides; including what can be definitively proven and the risks involved to the parties. There are political agendas outside of what is directly on the table here for both sides, imo.

I believe in deliberative executive privilege for the reasons I posted upthread. I agree that Obama hoped this could be made to go away before pulling that card. Using executive privilege sends up a bigger flag and fuels suspicion of wrongful indisclosure with the public based on how it's been used in recent history, imo.

So, did Obama wait until the last minute to pull that card because other attempts to contain the situation had been expired and he believes that it sincerely applies? Or, did he do it hoping to keep the wolves at bay even though he believes that the requested docs/communications should not be considered privileged? That is the point that I'm less convinced about than you and Dick. I'm not sure. I tend to want as much information as possible before I dig my heels in on something of this magnitude, which may be rightfully construed as indecisive or less smart by some. But, I'm a bit analytical and it works for me.

The Terrys deserve answers (as do the Mexican officials) and I know they're frustrated and disgusted with the process so far. My heart goes out to them.

[Jimbone]

What's being left out of everything is that this was not started as a political scandal. This was started by a low level whistle blower who thought what was going on was either criminal or negligent. The story got bigger because Justice was dragging feet on the investigation (i.e. not really doing one), and people started getting shuffled around. Then the election in 2010 changed everything, and it became politics.

There are sharp and smart investigators in Justice who could have had this wrapped up and closed before November of 2010. I'm left to assume no one really wanted the answers, and the cover-up really started before any committee started looking into it. If it's not that, then it's just gross incompetence.

Either way, there is a failure of leadership and accountability.

[HairOfTheDog]

What's being left out of everything is that this was not started as a political scandal. This was started by a low level whistle blower who thought what was going on was either criminal or negligent. The story got bigger because Justice was dragging feet on the investigation (i.e. not really doing one), and people started getting shuffled around. Then the election in 2010 changed everything, and it became politics.

There are sharp and smart investigators in Justice who could have had this wrapped up and closed before November of 2010. I'm left to assume no one really wanted the answers, and the cover-up really started before any committee started looking into it. If it's not that, then it's just gross incompetence.

Either way, there is a failure of leadership and accountability.

I agree that this has been drawn out far too long. I think that maybe Holder and Obama figured that the resignation of ATF Chief Melson would quash the fire and the buck would be perceived as stopping there. That might have satisified some IF Holder had been more forthcoming about his knowledge of the operation. I don't think too many would expect him to be hands-on involved in every operation, but denying knowledge of its existence altogether and then backtracking did indeed show a lack of accountability, imo, based on what's been reported.

P.s. thanks for not hitting me up about using "wrongful indisclosure" instead of "wrongful non-disclosure" in my post above. I know you noticed.

[Jimbone]

P.s. thanks for not hitting me up about using "wrongful indisclosure" instead of "wrongful non-disclosure" in my post above. I know you noticed.

There are a few things I could say right now, but only one really comes to the forefront...

[IMaDick]

You're a smart girl. You know what is really going on here... if there was a true executive privilege claim, they would have used it immediately and not at the last minute. Throwing it out there now is a stall tactic - and I'm not sure under a court challenge the executive privilege claim will survive (if it gets that far) because laws were obviously broken.

You know - as well as everyone else with a brain - that this was a class A, all hands, fuck up that went all the way to the top of Justice. And maybe further?

What we are watching now is political theater at its worst. And Brian Terry's parents have a front row seat.

I know what I think based on everything I've read/watched and my assessment thereof. But, I'm very much looking at the motives and strategies of both sides; including what can be definitively proven and the risks involved to the parties. There are political agendas outside of what is directly on the table here for both sides, imo.

I believe in deliberative executive privilege for the reasons I posted upthread. I agree that Obama hoped this could be made to go away before pulling that card. Using executive privilege sends up a bigger flag and fuels suspicion of wrongful indisclosure with the public based on how it's been used in recent history, imo.

So, did Obama wait until the last minute to pull that card because other attempts to contain the situation had been expired and he believes that it sincerely applies? Or, did he do it hoping to keep the wolves at bay even though he believes that the requested docs/communications should not be considered privileged? That is the point that I'm less convinced about than you and Dick. I'm not sure. I tend to want as much information as possible before I dig my heels in on something of this magnitude, which may be rightfully construed as indecisive or less smart by some. But, I'm a bit analytical and it works for me.

The Terrys deserve answers (as do the Mexican officials) and I know they're frustrated and disgusted with the process so far. My heart goes out to them.

I can't help but notice that you zeroed in on how this plays out but failed to consider what has already played out.

You do understand that the crimes have already occurred? that Holder has already lied to congress? That Holder now continues to lie to congress and the whole country? and that obama stood up for the lies and now has extended a presidential power to the appointee in the justice dept.

I ask you again where does executive privilege end if it can be extended as far from the president as it has been this time?

My take on it is that it is a misdirection and was politically motivated to take the nations eyes off from the previous weeks executive order where obama legitimized by decree 800,000 plus illegal aliens.

Pretty much a fuck the people fuck the process sorta thing, just like using executive privilege now in the 12^th hour.



quack quack quack.

[HairOfTheDog]

I get it, Dick. If it walks like a duck...



I know the timing/sequence of events. I believe that Holder deliberately lied, though I don't want to believe it. After all, "lying is a state of mind". Ha.

You are correct. I am now looking at it, all this time later, from the perspective of what can be done about it and can it be proven that Holder wasn't just speaking in error or misinformed? I think that the internal documents that were subpoened and are now being protected under privilege are what Issa needs to prove that a deliberate lie was told to the Congress. Without those docs (for the sake of argument, let's assume that they contain proof that the DOJ's strategy was to lie to Congress), I think this investigation will fail to result in a resignation or an impeachment. I think the docs will remain covered by deliberative executive privilege.

The buck stops with Holder, imo. If Obama was lying when he first denied knowledge and is now using privilege to cover up, the buck got kicked up to his box, imo.

These are my opinions, based on the same circumstantial evidence that you and Jimbone have put forth and has been released to the public. But, I don't know for certain that my opinions wouldn't change with more facts and more disclosure (which are being withheld by the very person under suspicion, which is the problem, I know! - merry go round).

I'm just gonna keep listening and watching and reading. No matter what can or can't be proven, I remain disgusted with how the F&F operation was mismanaged and frustrated with the bullshit.

[HairOfTheDog]

"A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust."
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/20...ous-truth/

For those interested, this is a very long and in-depth article about an investigation into the F&F operation by FORTUNE; including the role of Arizona prosecutors, in-fighting within the ATF unit, background on Dodson (the whistle blower), etc... This article is from CNN today and is also linked by Huffington Post.