(08-11-2012, 08:45 AM)Duchess Wrote: Why would I want to educate myself on addiction? Knowing any more than I already know won't change my opinion.

Holy shit...you mean to tell me that once your mind is made up on a certain subject, whether you know fuck all about it or not...and then actually spend time educating yourself on that subject, that you'd refuse to open yourself to the possibility that you might just be wrong, and could possibly change your mind? That's some sad shit right there.

(08-11-2012, 08:45 AM)Duchess Wrote: Of course they don't magically become strong minded, that's just dumb...even for you. They become sober enough to exhibit some self control, some will power. They are only one drink or one drug away from being right back where they were.

OK, now...with that being said..they were obviously sober prior to using drugs/alcohol..what do you think caused them to not have self control to begin with? Were they "weak minded" to start with? Why did they not have that "self control" to begin with?

Could it be possible that some people are genetically disposed, or more prone to have an addiction problem than others? Could it be that addiction is a disease of the brain that inhibits some people from making the right choices?

Why is it that you can put two extremely intelligent people side by side in a bar, and one can have a drink or two like a normal person, and the other wont stop until he's trashed?

I'm not trying to make excuses for the addict, far from it. And I agree with you that WAY to many addicts use the disease thing as an excuse. The addict has to make the choice to stop using by whatever means necessary to do so, and if he/she does not make that choice, then it is completely on them. Much akin to a diabetic that would choose not to use his or her insulin. The treatments for the diabetic/addict may be different, but the choice to use those treatments is solely on the individual.

(08-11-2012, 09:16 AM)thekid65 Wrote: Holy shit...you mean to tell me that once your mind is made up on a certain subject, whether you know fuck all about it or not...and then actually spend time educating yourself on that subject, that you'd refuse to open yourself to the possibility that you might just be wrong, and could possibly change your mind?

No, of course not, I'm intelligent & I really enjoy learning and hope to continue to do so right up until the day I die. However, I enjoy tweaking you so I decided a few hours ago to say whatever I needed to in order for you to continue your rant. It was all about watching your post count add up. I didn't care a wit about your argument, your non-ending rant or your personal feelings regarding all of this, I only cared that you kept posting. Thanks!

Cough *bullshit* cough

To add to that, you've never seen me tweaked on a message board, nor will you....ever.

(08-11-2012, 10:04 AM)thekid65 Wrote: Cough *bullshit* cough

To add to that, you've never seen me tweaked on a message board, nor will you....ever.

I spent a couple hours doing it & I'm STILL doing it.

Tweaking me? Don't kid, or flatter yourself. You simply don't have the skills required. I made you look the fool (as I normally do), and now you're doing the back stroke.

Your minions on this board may fall for your act, sweetheart, but not me.

Actually, the more I think about it, I guess it's possible that you enjoy posting things that make you look stupid in order to attempt to "tweak" someone. For some reason I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case.

I spent time posting bullshit in order to keep you responding. It worked like a charm. I tweaked you.

I've ignored you lately, today I didn't. I had a goal & I achieved it. You're not above being manipulated & I proved it. The best you can do is spin.

(08-11-2012, 10:48 AM)Duchess Wrote:

I spent time posting bullshit in order to keep you responding. It worked like a charm. I tweaked you.

I've ignored you lately, today I didn't. I had a goal & I achieved it. You're not above being manipulated & I proved it. The best you can do is spin.

Ignored me lately? Now thats funny. Methinks I may make one, perhaps 2 posts a week in this joint on average over the last 8 months or so. There really isnt much to ignore.

Nice try. And hell, I could even give you the benefit of the doubt, and say you were trolling me..but the thing is, it was believable because you've proven yourself to be generally misinformed during most of our little discussions.

The brightest person I know is an alcoholic. He drank too much during law school. How he passed, with honors, is still a mystery. With that said, he knows and I know he's one ounce away from throwing it all away.
He's been sober for four years yet nurses daily the possibly all could be lost. Not his wife, nor his family can prevent him from taking a drink and destroying his life.

Only he has the power to do so- talk about total control of ones destiny!
I'm going to have him read this discussion and then seek his opinion as this topic has always fascinated me and I find myself vacillating on what to label alcoholism.

it's amazing the progress they're making with technology that shows what different toxins do to brains. An adolescent's brain is still developing. I watched this documentary they showed addicts various pictures of food, drugs, cigarettes, etc. When the coke addict saw the pic of the mirror with white powder and razor blade, there was this part of their brain that actually enlarged, became inflamed and actually changed colors on the scan. When the fat chicks saw the KFC theirs did the same thing and on and on...very interesting.

(08-11-2012, 08:26 PM)pspence Wrote: it's amazing the progress they're making with technology that shows what different toxins do to brains. An adolescent's brain is still developing. I watched this documentary they showed addicts various pictures of food, drugs, cigarettes, etc. When the coke addict saw the pic of the mirror with white powder and razor blade, there was this part of their brain that actually enlarged, became inflamed and actually changed colors on the scan. When the fat chicks saw the KFC theirs did the same thing and on and on...very interesting.

Pavlov's coke fiend.

(08-09-2012, 01:51 PM)Riotgear Wrote: Since he was about 15 my old my oldest son has been able to drink as much as he wants at home supllied by me. Wouldn't you know it took the mystery and shine right off it.

Now (at 18) he rarely drinks and doesn't seem particularly interested in doing so.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Or at the very least bored disinterest. That and simple cost/benefit analysis are the foundation of my parenting effort.

God I'm fucking brillant.

My parents started us with spiders- ya know the last drink in the can that all adults know is just backwash but as a kid we thought we were drinking. They allowed champagne at weddings, family gatherings we were allowed wine. We were told up front the effects of alcohol. We were told the laws. We were also told if we ever disobeyed those and needed a ride home they still cared. We were also told if someone else had been drinking to call and get a ride home. These were all agreed that it would be no questions at the time. This made me not be as inquisitive with alcohol as I grew up. I didn't seek it out. Yes I may of had some at times before legal age but NOTHING like the others my age who's parents had totally forbade it.

(08-11-2012, 04:49 AM)thekid65 Wrote:

(08-09-2012, 01:07 PM)username Wrote: The tragedy of that young boy potentially drowning after being given beer by his stepfather made me think yet again about youth and alcohol. That boy's story aside...

would you ever give your underage kid alcohol? Starting at the age of 12 or so, my parents used to give us one glass of wine at special occasions (birthdays, Christmas etc.). I don't know why and I wouldn't offer it to my kids. I gather it's fairly common in Europe though.

What about when they're 16, 17...? I want my kids to know they can call me if they ever need a ride (either because they're impaired or they're with someone who's impaired). If I offer that and then punish them for it, I don't think they'll call again so I feel like I'd have to stay quiet. Is that condoning it?

I had a friend who hosted a high school graduation party for her kids (she has twins as well). She served alcohol to them and according to her, she told the other parents that there would be alcohol and they needed to arrange transportation for their kids. I can't imagine hosting anything like that but I also doubt that my kids will still be drink free at the age of 18. I'd love it if they were but...highly unlikely. I wouldn't out and out provide them with alcohol though.

Thoughts?

Alcohol is the most destructive and life ruining drug on this planet, period. Would you lay out a line of coke for your 12 year old? No, methinks not. Like others have posted, I too was allowed a glass of wine at special dinners (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc), my Pops shared a beer with me around age 13 or so..and quite honestly, I remember not being too impressed at all (perhaps due to the fact that it was a Hamms).

During my stint in rehab, almost all of the alcoholics related stories of their youth, and the common binder was how prevalent alcohol was in their families. Most of them had memories of being very young (less than 10 years old), and their parents would have them serve and clean-up drinks at their parties.

"Oh look, how cute, little Johnny is bringing us drinks"

They didnt notice that when Johnny saw how much fun the adults were having when they were getting trashed, that little Johnny was finishing the leftover drinks in the kitchen after he had cleaned up the glasses. I heard that shit over, and over, and over. It really was a common theme.

If I had a child, no way in hell I would condone him/her drinking before the legal age. To host a party for underage drinking tells me that a parent has absolutely no control over their child, as they always justify it by saying "their going to get drunk anyways, so I'd rather have them do it at home". That's just plain crap, IMO.

Funny....a year or so ago, my response would have been totally different.

/Soapbox

I don't have kids but I have nephews and I would never give alcohol to their friends even if the parents gave permission. I would let them taste drinks when not in the presence of friends. and I would prefer them drink around family who will help them be responsible than them experiment when they are being sneaky. That sneakiness and lack of supervision is what leads to many of those prom tragedy's everyone has been discussing.

In this particular situation bringing this topic to light-
1- the majority of the kids were not his
2- I would never approve of kids drinking in public
3- I would never condone adults of legal age drinking near a river much less children
4- Who was going to drive home???

(08-16-2012, 12:38 AM)flaming bitch Wrote:

(08-09-2012, 01:51 PM)Riotgear Wrote: Since he was about 15 my old my oldest son has been able to drink as much as he wants at home supllied by me. Wouldn't you know it took the mystery and shine right off it.

Now (at 18) he rarely drinks and doesn't seem particularly interested in doing so.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Or at the very least bored disinterest. That and simple cost/benefit analysis are the foundation of my parenting effort.

God I'm fucking brillant.

My parents started us with spiders- ya know the last drink in the can that all adults know is just backwash but as a kid we thought we were drinking. They allowed champagne at weddings, family gatherings we were allowed wine. We were told up front the effects of alcohol. We were told the laws. We were also told if we ever disobeyed those and needed a ride home they still cared. We were also told if someone else had been drinking to call and get a ride home. These were all agreed that it would be no questions at the time. This made me not be as inquisitive with alcohol as I grew up. I didn't seek it out. Yes I may of had some at times before legal age but NOTHING like the others my age who's parents had totally forbade it.

(08-11-2012, 04:49 AM)thekid65 Wrote:

(08-09-2012, 01:07 PM)username Wrote: The tragedy of that young boy potentially drowning after being given beer by his stepfather made me think yet again about youth and alcohol. That boy's story aside...

would you ever give your underage kid alcohol? Starting at the age of 12 or so, my parents used to give us one glass of wine at special occasions (birthdays, Christmas etc.). I don't know why and I wouldn't offer it to my kids. I gather it's fairly common in Europe though.

What about when they're 16, 17...? I want my kids to know they can call me if they ever need a ride (either because they're impaired or they're with someone who's impaired). If I offer that and then punish them for it, I don't think they'll call again so I feel like I'd have to stay quiet. Is that condoning it?

I had a friend who hosted a high school graduation party for her kids (she has twins as well). She served alcohol to them and according to her, she told the other parents that there would be alcohol and they needed to arrange transportation for their kids. I can't imagine hosting anything like that but I also doubt that my kids will still be drink free at the age of 18. I'd love it if they were but...highly unlikely. I wouldn't out and out provide them with alcohol though.

Thoughts?

Alcohol is the most destructive and life ruining drug on this planet, period. Would you lay out a line of coke for your 12 year old? No, methinks not. Like others have posted, I too was allowed a glass of wine at special dinners (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc), my Pops shared a beer with me around age 13 or so..and quite honestly, I remember not being too impressed at all (perhaps due to the fact that it was a Hamms).

During my stint in rehab, almost all of the alcoholics related stories of their youth, and the common binder was how prevalent alcohol was in their families. Most of them had memories of being very young (less than 10 years old), and their parents would have them serve and clean-up drinks at their parties.

"Oh look, how cute, little Johnny is bringing us drinks"

They didnt notice that when Johnny saw how much fun the adults were having when they were getting trashed, that little Johnny was finishing the leftover drinks in the kitchen after he had cleaned up the glasses. I heard that shit over, and over, and over. It really was a common theme.

If I had a child, no way in hell I would condone him/her drinking before the legal age. To host a party for underage drinking tells me that a parent has absolutely no control over their child, as they always justify it by saying "their going to get drunk anyways, so I'd rather have them do it at home". That's just plain crap, IMO.

Funny....a year or so ago, my response would have been totally different.

/Soapbox

I don't have kids but I have nephews and I would never give alcohol to their friends even if the parents gave permission. I would let them taste drinks when not in the presence of friends. and I would prefer them drink around family who will help them be responsible than them experiment when they are being sneaky. That sneakiness and lack of supervision is what leads to many of those prom tragedy's everyone has been discussing.

In this particular situation bringing this topic to light-
1- the majority of the kids were not his
2- I would never approve of kids drinking in public
3- I would never condone adults of legal age drinking near a river much less children
4- Who was going to drive home???

Nice av.

(08-11-2012, 09:16 AM)thekid65 Wrote:

(08-11-2012, 08:45 AM)Duchess Wrote: Why would I want to educate myself on addiction? Knowing any more than I already know won't change my opinion.

Holy shit...you mean to tell me that once your mind is made up on a certain subject, whether you know fuck all about it or not...and then actually spend time educating yourself on that subject, that you'd refuse to open yourself to the possibility that you might just be wrong, and could possibly change your mind? That's some sad shit right there.

(08-11-2012, 08:45 AM)Duchess Wrote: Of course they don't magically become strong minded, that's just dumb...even for you. They become sober enough to exhibit some self control, some will power. They are only one drink or one drug away from being right back where they were.

OK, now...with that being said..they were obviously sober prior to using drugs/alcohol..what do you think caused them to not have self control to begin with? Were they "weak minded" to start with? Why did they not have that "self control" to begin with?

Could it be possible that some people are genetically disposed, or more prone to have an addiction problem than others? Could it be that addiction is a disease of the brain that inhibits some people from making the right choices?

Why is it that you can put two extremely intelligent people side by side in a bar, and one can have a drink or two like a normal person, and the other wont stop until he's trashed?

Duchess did say earlier that addicts were flawed. That is her stance. Don't make me go back and quote it!!!!!!!! But she was just tweaking you........

Isn't it interesting that it is socially acceptable to get drunk and drink alcohol, but the moment you tell people that you don't drink, they become wierded out. It is acceptable to show up to work on Monday morning and tell about drunken escapades, not where I work mind you, but I have experienced this in the past.

Even with graduation parties. I went to a non drinking celebration and had a great time. No pressure. But I am sure the kids at the drinking parties can say no if they want to right? Because they have goals.

I am actually torn on the idea of giving kids alcohol. 1. it is illegal. 2. I have seen it work in homes where kids have it-and it is ok-in a "normal" home around the dinner table-not because mom or dad was drunk and said, "Here JR have a beer!"

I would not be a parent providing alcohol in a party setting. I couldn't do it.

(08-16-2012, 04:37 AM)Love Child Wrote: Isn't it interesting that it is socially acceptable to get drunk and drink alcohol, but the moment you tell people that you don't drink, they become wierded out.

Yes, it is & some people will try to push it on you anyway, yet these same people who glug glug glug every chance they get think it's a terrible thing to smoke a lil' weed and even use the fact that you do as a type of insult. Stoner! Pothead!

My ex is an alcholic and there is nothing that will make him stop drinking. He lost his wife, kids, big house in the burbs, boat, all his toys yet he still didn't stop. In the 9 years since we split he has had 3 serious girlfriends that have all left him over his drinking and the drama that ensues. His last one has become my new BFF. Not by my choice! But she keeps texting and emailing me and I feel so bad for her because she is going through a really rough time dealing with the fall out of the relationship ending. Anyway, my point it nothing will stop him from drinking because he doesn't want to. He lost his last job due to his drinking. The ex-GF told me she had to drive him to court when we went because he would drink all the way there! Who drinks on the way to court??? In the morning?? Someone with a serious problem.

His brother is also an alcoholic. He just entered a 9 month rehab program. This is probably his 10^th time in rehab but the first time in a long term program. His second wife divorced him. He lost a very high paying job with the state. And he too lost his big house in the burbs and all his toys. Did he stop drinking? Nope. Well hopefully now he will. The difference between the ex and his brother is that his brother is a really nice guy not an asshole like the ex. But he is the youngest child and has always been the baby. Although he has been in rehab more than enough to get his shit together, I think he enjoys being the victim and poor Richie. His ex is such a bitch and she takes him to court every other month and she won't let him see the kids and poor Richie blah blah blah. His ex-wife IS a total bitch however, he made his bed and now he has to lie in it. I am out of sympathy for him.

As Kid said, both my ex and his brother grew up with alcohol always around. Parties at the lake. Plenty of drinking all the time. They both started drinking at around 12 or 13. Did that turn them into alcoholics? Is it genetics? Environment? Life choices? Or a combination of all of that?

My very good friend grew up in a house where there was no alcohol at all. But none. Not at parties, at celebrations, nothing. He had his first drink at a grad party when he was 18. By the time he was 25, he couldn't get through a day without a drink. By the time he was 28, he was putting vodka in his coffee in the morning, was drunk by noon (at work) and passed out by 9 PM. Then his girlfriend got pregnant. He checked himself into rehab. When he got out, he sometimes went to 4 or 5 AA meetings a day. He calls his sponsor daily. He is three years sober and has no desire to drink. He says his daughter is too important. His parents have all but disowned him for being an alcoholic. Each blames the other, though no alcoholism exists on either side of the family. No one knows why he became so addicted to it and for years and years, no one even knew how bad it was. Was it environment? Is he somehow predisposed to it? We all partied alot as kids, but we all "grew out of it". He didn't. He's on the straight and narrow now and still attends AA several times a week.

(08-11-2012, 07:44 AM)Duchess Wrote:

I don't care what people do with their kids because I don't care about them or their children. So...whatever they choose to do is fine by me, it doesn't affect me or my life & I've been pretty open in saying I just don't give a shit about people outside of my own life. I simply don't care. *shrugs*

I wouldn't smoke pot or drink with minors. I value what I have & have no desire to be sued.

No, I don't think I view alcohol as a drug, I can say that because I'm not a weak minded individual who lets something control me. I waffle back & forth on even thinking of alcoholism as a disease. I think people who lose everything because they are powerless over alcohol are weak. They are flawed.

Disease or not, the nice thing about alcoholics is there is a cure for their "disease". Don't drink, right. They can get help, they can change many of them do. Some don't.
There are many other diseases that have no "cure".
And last time I checked there is also not a cure for being an asshole. ; )

But I did think about your "flawed" statement for a while, and I have to agree, but like I said most, if they want it, have a choice at some point in their life.

I choose not to drink because alcoholism runs in my family. When I was 21 I tried it, liked it and knew that I better not indulge, so I don't. At all.

And yes potheads and drinkers argue with one another-do you know the difference between an alcoholic and a druggie? An alcoholic will steal your money, the druggie will steal it, then help you look for it.

(08-20-2012, 01:13 AM)Love Child Wrote: Disease or not, the nice thing about alcoholics is there is a cure for their "disease". Don't drink, right. They can get help, they can change many of them do. Some don't.
There are many other diseases that have no "cure".
And last time I checked there is also not a cure for being an asshole. ; )

Most of my posts regarding this topic are flawed because I was fuckin' around with Kid...

...but since you're taking me seriously I'll give an honest response. I think alcoholism is a disease, there comes a point in it that those who are alcoholics are drinking to feel "normal". It's an insidious disease that affects almost everyone associated with the person who has it, both personally & professionally. It wields a considerable amount of power. It can destroy lifelong friendships, marriages and reduce a career to rubble.

I think those who realize their drinking has become out of control & take steps to overcome it deserve kudos & support.