(06-19-2013, 06:01 AM)Donovan Wrote: And we only know "fifty plots" because those same nasty guys say so. No detail, no corroboration. Just "trust us. THIS time we aren't lying."

Intelligence saves lives whistleblowers don't.

Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security.

(06-19-2013, 05:59 AM)Donovan Wrote: all around nasty group of spy type guys.

Just so we're clear.

I'm more of the Jim Rockford type of Spy.

(06-19-2013, 10:08 AM)Donovan Wrote: Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security.

Yeah the liberty to be blown to smithereens by a raghead with a fertiliser bomb tied to his ass.

We give up our liberties all over the place in the pursuit of safety. I disagree with what Snowden did and continues to do.

(06-19-2013, 11:17 AM)username Wrote: We give up our liberties all over the place in the pursuit of safety. I disagree with what Snowden did and continues to do.

Truly a voice of reason amongst a veritable choir of claptrap.

(06-19-2013, 10:37 AM)Cynical Ninja Wrote:

(06-19-2013, 10:08 AM)Donovan Wrote: Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security.

Yeah the liberty to be blown to smithereens by a raghead with a fertiliser bomb tied to his ass.

Are you implying that my above statement is not accurate or is somehow foolish and naive?

(06-19-2013, 11:29 AM)Donovan Wrote:

(06-19-2013, 10:37 AM)Cynical Ninja Wrote:

(06-19-2013, 10:08 AM)Donovan Wrote: Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security.

Yeah the liberty to be blown to smithereens by a raghead with a fertiliser bomb tied to his ass.

Are you implying that my above statement is not accurate or is somehow foolish and naive?

Let's put it this way:

Even with all the bullshit going on with the NSA, I still feel incredibly free and full of liberty.

No one is restricting me and mine from doing what we want to do.

Guess what? I've got nothing to hide, and if these so-called methods infringe on someone else's definition of liberties and rights, then we'll just disagree.

At the same time, if what they've done has indeed thwarted even one terrorist plot, then it was worth it.

I was asking Cynical Nimrod, but fair enough. User? OlPissant? What say you?

(06-19-2013, 11:29 AM)Donovan Wrote: Are you implying that my above statement is not accurate or is somehow foolish and naive?

No, in principal i would probably agree with it but I wonder if Benjamin Franklin would have ever said it if he had been living in the world we live in today?

Terrorists weren't kidnapping people and beheading them live on the internet back in his day.

Another way Dick Cheney is an asshole -

This is a quote from former CIA agent Valerie Plame. I found this when I was reading her thoughts on the "whistleblower".

"The irony of people like Dick Cheney or Karl Rove whining and bemoaning the fact of the leak of intelligence -- given my history and certainly Dick Cheney's intimate involvement with the betrayal of my CIA identity -- is really something," she said.

(06-19-2013, 11:55 AM)Cynical Ninja Wrote:

(06-19-2013, 11:29 AM)Donovan Wrote: Are you implying that my above statement is not accurate or is somehow foolish and naive?

No, in principal i would probably agree with it but I wonder if Benjamin Franklin would have ever said it if he had been living in the world we live in today?

Terrorists weren't kidnapping people and beheading them live on the internet back in his day.

Of course he'd have the same opinions. Franklin and the others were fighting the exact same sort of heavy-handed tyranny from England we are now seeing in our own government. If you don't like his words on the subject, how about Patrick Henry?

Patrick Henry Wrote:The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.

Patrick Henry Wrote:Fear is the passion of slaves.

Or how about Thomas Paine?

Thomas Paine Wrote:He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Or if your tastes run to your own countrymen, one John Milton for example:

John Milton Wrote:Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.

Or let's go all the way back to see what Socrates has to say on right and wrong:

Socrates Wrote:A system of morality which is based on relative emotional values is a mere illusion, a thoroughly vulgar conception which has nothing sound in it and nothing true.

Get the idea? There is no substitute for freedom and liberty. None. Not safety, not security, not a peaceful night's sleep, and certainly not giving away one for the other. Guys like Assange and Snowden do what they do because otherwise no one will. And whether we agree or not we should be mindful of what they have shown us.

I'm worried about someone introducing ricin in to our water supply. If some surveillance can help prevent that, I'm all for it. I disagree, Dono. If you're not doing anything wrong, why wouldn't safety trump liberty? Within reason....

Do you think people should be allowed on planes without going through a security check point?

Way to quote old dead guys by the way. The theory is good but in practice, it doesn't fit the world today.

(06-19-2013, 09:36 PM)username Wrote: Way to quote old dead guys by the way. The theory is good but in practice, it doesn't fit the world today.

No it doesn't, you can quote dead guys till you are blue in the face it doesn't change the fact that the game has changed and so have the rules.

The utopian concept of liberty for all means liberty for terrorists as well, donovan douchebag is living in the past.