(11-06-2017, 01:51 PM)Duchess Wrote:
Are you telling me I'm wrong?

You already know the answer to that.

But I'll entertain you I guess.

1. It's also easier for me to purchase a propane tank, fertilizer, and a DQ Oreo Blizzard than get a beauticians license.

2. Abortions can be had legally in all 50 states, even if you're a felon! Under current guns laws, most felons are prohibited from owning or possessing firearms. You can also get an abortion under the age of 18 in many states with simple parental notice, or no parental notice at all. In most cases you are prohibited from owning firearms until you're 18 under current law, even with parental consent.

3. In most states you can marry before being legally old enough to purchase a firearm, with parental consent. However, even with parental consent you are prohibited from owning a firearm until 18 (in most instances).

And then there's my personal favorite, you can go to war and die for your country, but you can't legally drink a beer at 18.

(11-06-2017, 03:23 PM)Jimbone Wrote: But I'll entertain you I guess.

It meant nothing to me, absolutely nothing. I don't say that rudely nor do I take joy in giving no regard to the opinions of those I like. I'm at the point where my one and only opinion about this issue is that the right of people to live carries more weight than the rights of those who want to have fun with their automatic weapon. That's where my head is at.

I doubt I'll ever debate this subject again but that's not to say I won't shoot off my mouth about it either. It's just that I don't have anything further to add to the discussion and my opinion isn't debatable. I'm firm in it now.

(11-06-2017, 01:48 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote:

(11-06-2017, 12:06 PM)Carsman Wrote:

(11-06-2017, 10:18 AM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: Every time someone commits a mass murder, people want to discuss the tools used to commit the crime and legislation to combat it. This IMO is where the US falls short. We as a country need to invest and improve the mental health system. This crime wasn't over a disagreement. This man was insane.

(11-06-2017, 10:19 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Here are some updates I'm hearing on the news this morning:

1. Kelley was court-martialed in 2012 on two counts -- one for assaulting his wife and one for assaulting his child.

2. He spent a year in military prison and was was discharged for bad behavior in 2014. Since it wasn't a 'dishonorable discharge' which is the only type of discharge worse than a discharge for bad behavior, for some reason he was able to pass background checks and buy guns legally (which is stupid to me -- violent/domestic assault convictions in the military should be in the NICS database and as disqualifying as the same convictions outside the military).

3. Texas is open carry. Kelley had applied for a concealed carry permit (which I understand is at the discretion of local law enforcement). His application was denied.

4. He appears to have been divorced in 2012. It seems his current wife is his second wife; not clear if they were together or estranged. It is confirmed now that his in-laws attend the Baptist Church which was attacked and his wife used to teach Bible Study at that same church, but they did not attend the service yesterday.

5. President Trump weighed in from Japan. After offering prayers and condolences, he didn't say it was 'too soon' to talk about gun control this time. Instead, he went further and said directly that this isn't about guns, it's about mental health (though he overturned a law a few months back which banned some people designated as having mental incapacities).

6. It's been confirmed that an armed neighbor of the church confronted Kelley and sent him running out of the church, dropping his rifle in the process. Another local heard the news from his girlfriend and showed up quickly to help in his truck. The good samaritan who'd driven Kelley out of the church hopped in the second good samaritan's truck and they chased Kelley for 11 miles at high speeds until Kelley crashed his vehicle.

7. I've heard Kelley had taken a hostage, but that hasn't been confirmed by LE.

8. The two good samaritans say Kelley was already dead when they approached the crashed vehicle. Still not clear if he shot himself.

The problem is two fold. (As I see it)
The first problem lies with the ease with witch "mentally challenged" and or "hot heads" individuals can purchase guns! Absurd! Major overhaul of vetting process required to rectify problem. (ASAP, like yesterday!)

The second problem is really with guns, as to do with the actual deadly magnitude of "fire power" of the guns those individuals can so easily purchase! Absurd!

Again, the question to ponder to do with guns, for what use/reason do civilians need to have destructive "mass killing power" weapons? Those type weapons are really not meant for "sport" shooting.

Mass killing weapons in the hands of the mentally challenged, and or angered hot heads is the culprit that allows so many innocent victims to be efficiently "mass murdered" so quickly! Absurd!

And how long has this country been been trying to legislate firearms? Has anything to date been passed that will stop this kind of tragedy? If there was we wouldn't be having this conversation. Making it about guns is a dead end.

With all the deadly shooting carnage that has occurred in Sandy Hook, Florida Nightclub, Vegas, now Baptist Church, done with mass killing "assault" weapons in the hands of madmen surely may get politicians off their duffs and finally get them to do something about it!
"Public Outcry" must loudly continue to be heard, to force rectifying action from those in power!

(11-06-2017, 04:06 PM)Carsman Wrote:

(11-06-2017, 01:48 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote:

(11-06-2017, 12:06 PM)Carsman Wrote:

(11-06-2017, 10:18 AM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: Every time someone commits a mass murder, people want to discuss the tools used to commit the crime and legislation to combat it. This IMO is where the US falls short. We as a country need to invest and improve the mental health system. This crime wasn't over a disagreement. This man was insane.

(11-06-2017, 10:19 AM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: Here are some updates I'm hearing on the news this morning:

1. Kelley was court-martialed in 2012 on two counts -- one for assaulting his wife and one for assaulting his child.

2. He spent a year in military prison and was was discharged for bad behavior in 2014. Since it wasn't a 'dishonorable discharge' which is the only type of discharge worse than a discharge for bad behavior, for some reason he was able to pass background checks and buy guns legally (which is stupid to me -- violent/domestic assault convictions in the military should be in the NICS database and as disqualifying as the same convictions outside the military).

3. Texas is open carry. Kelley had applied for a concealed carry permit (which I understand is at the discretion of local law enforcement). His application was denied.

4. He appears to have been divorced in 2012. It seems his current wife is his second wife; not clear if they were together or estranged. It is confirmed now that his in-laws attend the Baptist Church which was attacked and his wife used to teach Bible Study at that same church, but they did not attend the service yesterday.

5. President Trump weighed in from Japan. After offering prayers and condolences, he didn't say it was 'too soon' to talk about gun control this time. Instead, he went further and said directly that this isn't about guns, it's about mental health (though he overturned a law a few months back which banned some people designated as having mental incapacities).

6. It's been confirmed that an armed neighbor of the church confronted Kelley and sent him running out of the church, dropping his rifle in the process. Another local heard the news from his girlfriend and showed up quickly to help in his truck. The good samaritan who'd driven Kelley out of the church hopped in the second good samaritan's truck and they chased Kelley for 11 miles at high speeds until Kelley crashed his vehicle.

7. I've heard Kelley had taken a hostage, but that hasn't been confirmed by LE.

8. The two good samaritans say Kelley was already dead when they approached the crashed vehicle. Still not clear if he shot himself.

The problem is two fold. (As I see it)
The first problem lies with the ease with witch "mentally challenged" and or "hot heads" individuals can purchase guns! Absurd! Major overhaul of vetting process required to rectify problem. (ASAP, like yesterday!)

The second problem is really with guns, as to do with the actual deadly magnitude of "fire power" of the guns those individuals can so easily purchase! Absurd!

Again, the question to ponder to do with guns, for what use/reason do civilians need to have destructive "mass killing power" weapons? Those type weapons are really not meant for "sport" shooting.

Mass killing weapons in the hands of the mentally challenged, and or angered hot heads is the culprit that allows so many innocent victims to be efficiently "mass murdered" so quickly! Absurd!

And how long has this country been been trying to legislate firearms? Has anything to date been passed that will stop this kind of tragedy? If there was we wouldn't be having this conversation. Making it about guns is a dead end.

With all the deadly shooting carnage that has occurred in Sandy Hook, Florida Nightclub, Vegas, now Baptist Church, done with mass killing "assault" weapons in the hands of madmen surely may get politicians off their duffs and finally get them to do something about it!
"Public Outcry" must loudly continue to be heard, to force rectifying action from those in power!

I just don't see it happening Cars. Not in the USA. The public outcry has been heard since Columbine (18 years ago).

This just in: The gunman who opened fire inside a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, has been identified as Devin Kelley, an Antifa member who vowed to start a civil war by “targeting white conservative churches” and causing anarchy in the United States.

(11-06-2017, 04:32 PM)Blindgreed1 Wrote: This just in: The gunman who opened fire inside a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, has been identified as Devin Kelley, an Antifa member who vowed to start a civil war by “targeting white conservative churches” and causing anarchy in the United States.

Source?

I don't see anything happening other than everyone just says our prayers are with the victims and moves on until the next one happens. At the very least they could make sure they keep guns out of the hands of people who are already a red flag. Like this asshole.

(11-06-2017, 05:22 PM)sally Wrote: I don't see anything happening other than everyone just says our prayers are with the victims

Which is so friggin' ironic given the people were literally praying as they were slaughtered.

I guess God wasn't around that day.

(11-06-2017, 03:50 PM)Duchess Wrote:

It meant nothing to me, absolutely nothing. I don't say that rudely nor do I take joy in giving no regard to the opinions of those I like. I'm at the point where my one and only opinion about this issue is that the right of people to live carries more weight than the rights of those who want to have fun with their automatic weapon. That's where my head is at.

I doubt I'll ever debate this subject again but that's not to say I won't shoot off my mouth about it either. It's just that I don't have anything further to add to the discussion and my opinion isn't debatable. I'm firm in it now.

Fair enough, I respect that.

However it's semi-automatic, not automatic.

And as this asshole demonstrated again, laws won't stop this from happening because those intent on wrongdoing do not and will not follow laws.

(11-06-2017, 05:29 PM)Jimbone Wrote: Fair enough, I respect that.

Thanks!

It's exceedingly frustrating and I tend to bark a lot when I'm frustrated. It's sickening that it keeps happening. It's one thing when thugs are killing thugs but it's a whole other level when the ones getting killed are little kids in school, God loving people in church worshiping and people out for a night of fun, and as you know, the list goes on. It's gut wrenching, Mr. Bone.

(11-06-2017, 05:29 PM)Jimbone Wrote: And as this asshole demonstrated again, laws won't stop this from happening because those intent on wrongdoing do not and will not follow laws.

I don't agree. He followed the laws and obtained the guns legally even though there were many red flags saying this person shouldn't have guns. Why did he pass background checks when he was discharged from the military for bad behavior and had domestic assault charges? Oh yeah, because guns are big business and no one gives a shit.

(11-06-2017, 05:53 PM)Duchess Wrote:
It's gut wrenching, Mr. Bone.

It absolutely is. There's no way to understand or comprehend it. That someone can do these things is inconceivable.

(11-06-2017, 05:58 PM)sally Wrote: I don't agree. He followed the laws and obtained the guns legally even though there were many red flags saying this person shouldn't have guns. Why did he pass background checks when he was discharged from the military for bad behavior and had domestic assault charges? Oh yeah, because guns are big business and no one gives a shit.

He knowingly lied on his background check form - why the NICS check didn't flag it is an answer I imagine we'll get somewhere down the line.

He was denied the license to carry in Texas.

He obtained and carried his firearms illegally.

The anal exam on how NICS didn't stop his purchases should be interesting.

Whether he lied on his application or not he was still allowed to legally purchase guns. Obviously there is no database to show he spent a year in military prison and physically assaulted a woman and child or it was just ignored.

He didn't buy them in a back street alley. I would think stricter laws saying these things can't be overlooked by the NICS or the dealer isn't unreasonable.

(11-06-2017, 06:15 PM)Jimbone Wrote:

(11-06-2017, 05:58 PM)sally Wrote: I don't agree. He followed the laws and obtained the guns legally even though there were many red flags saying this person shouldn't have guns. Why did he pass background checks when he was discharged from the military for bad behavior and had domestic assault charges? Oh yeah, because guns are big business and no one gives a shit.

The anal exam

Seems a bit extreme to me.

Yeah that's going a bit far.

(11-06-2017, 06:32 PM)sally Wrote: Whether he lied on his application or not he was still allowed to legally purchase guns. Obviously there is no database to show he spent a year in military prison and physically assaulted a woman and child or it was just ignored.

Except when you lie on the application you are breaking the law. His purchase was completed, but it wasn't a legal purchase since he provided untruthful information, as criminals tend to do.

And there's a preliminary report that the Air Force neglected to enter his convictions into the NICS database as they were supposed to.

The dealer has nothing to do with you getting permission from NICS to complete a transaction BTW. They take the information from the form you fill out, and provide it during the NICS check. The agent on the other end says yes or no, and that's where the transaction proceeds or stops.

And the NICS database is only as good as the info provided to it. If the Air Force fucked up, it's on them. Just like the PD that didn't enter Dylan Roof's drug arrest, which would have flagged him from purchasing when he did.

The only perfect system will be the no-more-gun-confiscate-existing system, and that's not likely to happen