(07-09-2013, 03:01 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: [ -> ]This whole I don't understand how Z feared for his life, thing has me scratching my head.
So for those that say this can you honestly say that if a 6ft tall person and yourself get into a tussle, in the dark, he punches you in the face, you fall to the ground and he jumps on top of you and he starts bashing your head into the ground and punches you in the face, you would not fear great bodily harm or even death?
Come on no be honest with yourself.
I almost used you as an example in a post this morning, F.U. To demonstrate the subjectivity of "reasonable" in regards to self-defense.
If you'd found yourself in a fight with Trayvon Martin (regardless of who started it), I believe with almost certainty that you'd have handled the teen without having to shoot him dead. If you had shot him dead with your abilities and experience, you'd have a tougher time with a self defense claim than George Zimmerman.
Do you disagree? No wrong or right answer in my mind, just curious.
Either way, I think it's reasonable to doubt George's version of events and want to hear the evidence from both sides in order to form an opinion (or remain unsure).
I'm not taking George's claims or the state's claim as gospel; weighing it all.
(07-09-2013, 03:08 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think George's injuries appeared life threatening.
What part of PERCEIVED FEAR don't you understand?
He was a fucking pussy.
He probably jumped at the sound of his own farts.
Get over the whole injury thing.
Or tie it up nicely as it relates to the statute.
(07-09-2013, 03:09 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:01 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: [ -> ]This whole I don't understand how Z feared for his life, thing has me scratching my head.
So for those that say this can you honestly say that if a 6ft tall person and yourself get into a tussle, in the dark, he punches you in the face, you fall to the ground and he jumps on top of you and he starts bashing your head into the ground and punches you in the face, you would not fear great bodily harm or even death?
Come on no be honest with yourself.
I almost used you as an example in a post this morning, F.U. To demonstrate the subjectivity of "reasonable" in regards to self-defense.
If you'd found yourself in a fight with Trayvon Martin (regardless of who started it), I believe with almost certainty that you'd have handled the teen without having to shoot him dead. If you had shot him dead with your abilities and experience, you'd have a tougher time with a self defense claim than George Zimmerman.
Do you disagree? No wrong or right answer in my mind, just curious.
Either way, I think it's reasonable to doubt George's version of events and want to hear the evidence from both sides in order to form an opinion (or remain unsure).
I'm not taking George's claims or the state's claim as gospel; weighing it all.
I agree HotD. Odds are I would NOT have shot him that night. I have ben in several fights while armed and win or lose I did not pull my pistol. However that does not say that I did not think there was a chance that I could not end up with great bodily harm. That is the point. All Z had to do is fear he was about to get a real good ass wooping and he had the right [under SYG] to shoot.
(07-09-2013, 03:12 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:08 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think George's injuries appeared life threatening.
What part of PERCEIVED FEAR don't you understand?
I get it, I get it!!! Sheesh. I was responding to FU's "6ft guy jumps you in the dark, would you fear for your life". My answer was, I don't think George SHOULD have feared for his life but hell, Duchess won't visit a tropical island if a plane is involved for fear for her life so who's to say? Trayvon could have been hitting George with a nerf bat and the idiot could have thought he was going to die for all I know.
(07-09-2013, 03:08 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:01 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: [ -> ]This whole I don't understand how Z feared for his life, thing has me scratching my head.
So for those that say this can you honestly say that if a 6ft tall person and yourself get into a tussle, in the dark, he punches you in the face, you fall to the ground and he jumps on top of you and he starts bashing your head into the ground and punches you in the face, you would not fear great bodily harm or even death?
Come on no be honest with yourself.
I don't think George's injuries appeared life threatening. The police were already on their way; I don't think George would have died if they had continued to scuffle for several more minutes. Far from it.
However, if T was in fact going for Z's gun, then shit yeah, they both should have been in fear for their lives.
The gun carriers aren't going to appreciate this but if Z hadn't been armed that night, I'm pretty certain they'd both be alive today.
Injuries did not have to be life threatening User. All they had to be is bad enough that HE thought he was in a fight for his life.
I do agree tho, had Z not ben armed T probably would have ben alive today. He might be going through a assault trial right now for assaulting Georgie, but he would have ben alive to face those charges.
Oops just read your comment to BlueT.
The question was, would YOU be in fear if in that situation?
(07-09-2013, 03:16 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:12 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:08 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think George's injuries appeared life threatening.
What part of PERCEIVED FEAR don't you understand?
I get it, I get it!!! Sheesh. I was responding to FU's "6ft guy jumps you in the dark, would you fear for your life". My answer was, I don't think George SHOULD have feared for his life but hell, Duchess won't visit a tropical island if a plane is involved for fear for her life so who's to say? Trayvon could have been hitting George with a nerf bat and the idiot could have thought he was going to die for all I know.
Exactly, noone can tell what another persons fears are or to what depth he feared for his life. That is one thing that makes a SYG so hard to disprove.
(07-09-2013, 03:16 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ]I was responding to FU's 6ft guy jumps you in the dark, would you . . . ?
YOU would . . . if he was black.
In a New York minute!
(07-09-2013, 03:18 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: [ -> ]Oops just read your comment to JB.
The question was, would YOU be in fear if in that situation?
I'm a pretty tough cookie and I've been in some scrapes in my life too. Take the gun out of the equation, if we were somewhat evenly matched and I knew the police were on the way, I don't think I would have been in fear for my life. Maybe an ass whooping...
Then again, if I had a knife in my pocket, might I make a split second decision to use it anyway...? Dunno. I think gun owners have to have a good amount of restraint not to prematurely draw their weapons in a situation like that.
(07-09-2013, 03:26 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:16 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ]I was responding to FU's 6ft guy jumps you in the dark, would you . . . ?
YOU would . . . if he was black.
In a New York minute!
If a 6 foot black guy jumped me in the dark (we're assuming the jumping part here), I'd piss my non-existent underpants.
(07-09-2013, 03:33 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ]I'd piss my non-existent underpants.
See?
That's fear without injury!
Too bad SYG doesn't require one to soil themselves
before killing.
"Your honor, I'd like to introduce the shooter's soiled drawers as Exhibit A."
For many (if not all) it comes down to who initiated the physical confrontation.
1. It's been testified to that George was a physical pussy. Not athletic. No matter what User says, I don't see him putting his hands on T.
2. There's still some question as to whether or not T punched a bus driver in the days prior to this incident. No one has been able to flatly deny it, and, if it's true, it would go a long way toward establishing T as someone who's NOT afraid to throw the first punch.
3. There had been a recent midday break-in in that community where GZ was the neighborhood watch. A woman had been home, and, I don't recall if she'd been assaulted or not, but she'd definitely been scared out of her wits.
4. I would think that residents of that community were on edge. As NW did GZ go too far in following T? That's debatable. I don't think he did, others obviously do.
5. Who assaulted who first? To me, there's really no question. T either hit him over the head with his back turned, or sucker punched him in the face. One of the two. To me, he's now brought anything that happens on himself.
6. As I've said for the past 6 months, if you're going to kick some ass, make sure that person is unarmed, or at the very least, get their weapon.
(07-09-2013, 03:33 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:26 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:16 PM)username Wrote: [ -> ]I was responding to FU's 6ft guy jumps you in the dark, would you . . . ?
YOU would . . . if he was black.
In a New York minute!
If a 6 foot black guy jumped me in the dark (we're assuming the jumping part here), I'd piss my non-existent underpants.
That is why I did not say jumped and instead used, get into a tussle . I was trying to stick to the few proven [at least to this point of the trial] facts.
(07-09-2013, 03:45 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: [ -> ]For many (if not all) it comes down to who initiated the physical confrontation.
Really?
I thought it was all about the use of deadly force.
"As I've said for the past 6 months, if you're going to kick some ass, make sure that person is unarmed, or at the very least, get their weapon."
I'm surprised you left out
" or a woman", too.
(07-09-2013, 03:04 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: [ -> ]This could be my case also OP. I did not have many sober fights, but even at 50 years old I still am getting in fights at closing time at the bar.
That's a bit sad because you are anything but stupid FU.
Thankfully my football hooligan days are waaaaaay behind me thank christ.
(07-09-2013, 03:51 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:45 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: [ -> ]For many (if not all) it comes down to who initiated the physical confrontation.
Really?
I thought it was all about the use of deadly force.
"As I've said for the past 6 months, if you're going to kick some ass, make sure that person is unarmed, or at the very least, get their weapon."
I'm surprised you left out " or a woman", too.
You're not often called a moron, so I'll do it now.
Hey moron!
I realize most of what you said here was said tongue in cheek, but instead of trying to discredit what I'm saying, how about taking it a little farther?
If I were on the jury, and it could be established 100% that either GZ or T threw the first punch, it would go a long way toward a conviction or an acquittal.
Especially if GZ had done it. I'd have a real hard time buying the 'in fear of my life' defense at that point.
As far as I know, I don't believe the prosecution tried to pin that on GZ. If the state can't prove that, I think Z's self-defense claim becomes much more believable.
(07-09-2013, 04:23 PM)Duchess Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:45 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: [ -> ]No matter what User says, I don't see him putting his hands on T.
I disagree. I firmly believe that gun gave George balls. I think it affected his mentality & gave him confidence that he wouldn't have had without it strapped to his side.
Right now, I don't think the prosecution has made a compelling enough of a case to make me think that.
(07-09-2013, 04:23 PM)Duchess Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 03:45 PM)Midwest Spy Wrote: [ -> ]No matter what User says, I don't see him putting his hands on T.
I disagree. I firmly believe that gun gave George balls. I think it affected his mentality & gave him confidence that he wouldn't have had without it strapped to his side.
I've often wondered if G might have already had gun in hand when he and T ultimately connected. While he was supposedly being pummeled and T was straddling him, it's pretty impressive he was able to retrieve his gun from his holster and make that shot. His brain felt like it was "exploding" (George's words).
It was a perfect kill shot, in my opinion the only thing equal to it would have been a shot right between the eyes.
(07-09-2013, 02:57 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2013, 02:41 PM)Jimbone Wrote: [ -> ]It can't possibly be that they had a weak case and not enough contrary facts to work with.
Nope. Can't be.
Sure it can.
It just doesn't mean that charges weren't merited. IMO.
Then why couldn't the grand jury - who would have been selected from the same jury pool - have decided that charges were merited?