Mock

I agree with you on a number of points about this case, Tiki.

I think the law was written as color blind and therefore any changes to SYG laws will affect potential victims equally. Most of the protesters are only looking at changes as a way to protect potential black victims from potential non-black assaults (my inference from their words). I see it differently.

I also agree that if the jury believed the evidence showed that Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death and that he did all that he reasonably could to remove himself from the altercation with Trayvon before shooting, the jury had to consider it self defense, under the law. If they actually believed that Trayvon attacked George with the intent to murder him, only reasonably fear was required to consider the shooting "justified use of greater force". I don't object to the verdict.

One aspect that I see differently about the case is that the prosecution made it about race; I don't see it that way.

The defense put forth a motion that "racial profiling" could not be referred to at trial. The prosecution responded with no objection and stated that they never intended to make those implications.

Zimmerman didn't testify and get cross-examined; really disappointed me. But, smart move by the defense. There was nothing in the taped interviews of Zimmerman asking him what he meant by "punk" or "asshole". Those terms can be used subjectively. George Zimmerman was the only person who could answer that question and the prosecution shouldn't have tried to define it for him; would have back-fired badly, imo. "Punk" means different things to different people and O'Mara would have been all over that.

The prosecution only presented that the derogatory terms used by George showed hatred, ill-will, and spite stemming from Zimmerman's assumption that Trayvon was associated with the criminals who always get a way.

The jury didn't discuss race as part of their deliberation at all, according to B37. That didn't surprise me; I don't think it was presented as part of the case. I do however know that a good portion of the media and the public see this as a racially-motivated killing, or a least a killing that resulted from racial profiling. They may be right; I just don't see evidence of that being the case.

(07-21-2013, 03:32 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-22-2012, 11:11 AM)username Wrote: [ -> ]Yesterday, CNN enhanced the audio of Zimmerman's 911 call. You could hear him whisper "fucking coons".

I remember that "coon" was being reported in the media back in March 2012, including by CNN. It was later corrected.

There's a lot of stuff posted in here that isn't even from a media source, just dragged from comments off other boards and presented as posters' own ideas or as fact; some of it outdated, most of it baseless, and much of it proven untrue.

That's why LC didn't like things to be posted that weren't personal knowledge (and so noted) or with a legitimate cite source when it comes to the "facts" (as opposed to clearly-labeled opinions). I'm trying to respect her wisdom in that regard and make sure rumors and falsities are cleared up quickly without quashing the discussion. Doing my best.

Even following LC's rules for the crime forum, however, shit happens and sometimes legitimate sources have to retract bogus info. The "coon" bullshit featured in the media early in this case was some terrible reporting, intentional or otherwise.

(07-21-2013, 05:04 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-21-2013, 03:32 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-22-2012, 11:11 AM)username Wrote: [ -> ]Yesterday, CNN enhanced the audio of Zimmerman's 911 call. You could hear him whisper "fucking coons".

I remember that "coon" was being reported in the media back in March 2012, including by CNN. It was later corrected.

No shit. I was just repeating what was being reported at the time. For whatever reason, I did think I heard "coon" when they played the tape at that time (not anymore). Maybe I was profiling George as a racist pig. *shrugs*

(07-21-2013, 04:59 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ]The prosecution only presented that the derogatory terms used by George showed hatred, ill-will, and spite stemming from Zimmerman's assumption that Trayvon was associated with the criminals who always get a way.

And the prosecution indicated that all of the ones that allegedly got away were of different races . . . right?

I must have missed that.

Nothing will convince me that the prosecution, by deliberate omission, carefully asserted Zimmerman bore racial hatred and profiled racially.

And no statement from their office that Zimmerman was not racially motivated, was released after the trial, to quash the cries of racial injustice . . . ?

But let's listen to SA Corey's post verdict words . . .

“This case has never been about race nor has it ever been about the right to bear arms. Not in the sense of proving this as a criminal case. But Trayvon Martin was profiled. There is no doubt that he was profiled to be a criminal. And if race was one of the aspects in George Zimmerman’s mind, then we believe that we put out the proof necessary to show that Zimmerman did profile Trayvon Martin, but the right to bear arms is the right in which we all believe.”

Never about race . . . but if race was one of the aspects in George Zimmerman's mind . . . we put out the proof necessary . . . Zimmerman did profile Trayvon . . .

Yeah.

Race was never a part of it but, "Hey" . . . if it was . . . we proved it!

I see your point and you may well be right about the "deliberate omission".

If the prosecution was attempting to leave it to the jury to infer it was a racially-based murder by George Zimmerman, their "deliberate omission" strategy obviously failed (with the jury and some of the public).

In any case, I didn't see it at trial because it wasn't presented in the case, whatever the reason. So, I'm unable to make the leap from exaggerating, wimpy, wanna-be-cop to racially-based killer based on the evidence available.

Based on the media coverage that I've seen, that probably puts me in the minority. I'm comfortable there.

(07-21-2013, 05:59 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ]Based on the media coverage that I've seen, that probably puts me in the minority. I'm comfortable there.

That is my point.

If this trial wasn't about race, then why is the verdict about race now?

I did find de la Ronda's post verdict remarks as adding fuel to the "Zimmerman was Coon hunting" theory by stating:

"Our belief as to what happened: He chased down Trayvon Martin, he wanted to make sure Travyon Martin did not get away," said de la Rionda.

"Now at what point he pulled out the gun? We could speculate as to what happened. My theory is that he pulled it out early. He was going to make sure he didn't get away. He wanted to be a cop."

Not one shred of evidence to support his theory.

Nothing mentioned during a phone call by Trayvon stating he was being followed by a man with a gun.

IMO this is reprehensible behavior by an officer of the court.

And de la Ronda had the stones to call Zimmerman a liar!

^ I think it was always about race for some; depends on where you're sitting and your perspective and level of objectivity.

For those who perceived the killing as racially motivated based on the circumstances as initially reported: it was about race before the trial, it was about race at the trial, and it's likely still about race - nothing presented at trial addressed race.

For those who perceived that the killing was not racially based (or for whom it was unclear either way) based on the circumstances as initially reported: it was not about race or unclear before the trial, it was not about race or unclear during the trial, and it's likely still not about race or unclear - nothing presented at trial addressed race.

I don't know which is true. George Zimmerman may be the only one who knows for sure.

I just know that I'm not quick to assume and tend to need evidence before forming an opinion about other peoples' motives in a matter of this seriousness. That doesn't make me right; in fact, sometimes it just makes me late.

(07-21-2013, 11:54 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ]That doesn't make me right . . .

I believe the left would disagree.

I am comfortable with thugs being profiled, not asking for them to be shot on sight, but motivated to move along to somewhere else is fine with me.

Of course we do. It's an ingrained human survival instinct. We assess situations and make a judgement call on our surroundings. We avoid scary looking dogs, we move our children from harms way, we avoid areas at night etc etc. political correctness and civil libertarians have just been more liberal with the grey paint as time has gone by.

(07-22-2013, 02:55 AM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-21-2013, 11:54 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ]That doesn't make me right . . .

I believe the left would disagree.

Probably.

Now, I've got this verse running through my head!

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...here I am. Stuck in the middle with you...

Good company, good view. I'll probably stay a while.

(07-22-2013, 06:19 AM)Duchess Wrote: [ -> ]
I'm comfortable with people in general being profiled. Isn't that what we do in everyday life to keep ourselves safe? That's just an example.

I agree that profiling is necessary for survival, or at least safety.

Nobody should be arrested or jailed for their thoughts, even if those thoughts are based on wrong assumptions or ignorance.

It's the actions or reactions to the profiling that put people like George Zimmerman rightly in the hot seat, imo.

I don't mind people profiling as long as they don't mind being profiled back by somebody else.

“Officer, I shot the cracker because I feared for my life! I thought he was a serial killer and as you know the vast majority of serial killers ARE crackers!”

Yesterday, in Houston, rallies in support of George Zimmerman and rallies in support of Trayvon Martin both took place and met at River Oaks Shopping Center.

They chanted at each other and police on bikes were present to monitor the situation. No violence.

Some photos:

Its turned into a fucking farce now.

(07-22-2013, 04:35 PM)Cynical Ninja Wrote: [ -> ]Its turned into a fucking farce now.

Now?

Its been a farce since day 1