(05-09-2012, 07:10 PM)shitstorm Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry, Disciple, I don't know what that last sentence means. Help me out.
Yes, I was implying that about New York and any other place that expects victims to retreat. While someone may choose to retreat, out of fear, not everyone will, nor should they. I think of the many instances of women being advised to kick a guy in the nads and fight back, in an assault. I guess NY would arrest HER. It's completely up to each individual to gage the danger they're in and if they feel comfortable fighting back or if their life depends on it. The retreat bullshit puts a burden on the victim! I have no doubt, whatsoever, that the left would love to see the entire US brought under laws like they have in the UK where crime victims go to prison for defending their own lives.
What I mean about the People having the final say is that government and the legal system are inferior to the People. They are created to serve us, not the other way around. I will certainly grant you that that has been turned on it's head. I'm really talking about ideally, in the sense of what of what the framers created. Obviously, over a couple of hundred years, things have changed. That doesn't mean that I accept that change. In fact, I think most of it is downright criminal. You must know that there is a constant struggle between people of different ideologies. I'm a strict constructionist and see the role of government and law as our framers did. They even saw a difference between "legal" and "lawful", the latter having having to do with natural law and a higher authority and the former being a system of written law, subject to extreme corruption. I mean, you know that the US congress has passed all kinds of laws that fly in the face of the constitution. The PATRIOT Act, the NDAA, etc. When the criminals are in charge, they always write laws to protect themselves. That criminal establishment, all of whom took oaths to uphold and defend the constitution and daily violate that oath, wants America disarmed. And, yes, they will push that agenda as far as they think they can get away with it. Look at the article I just posted. There is nothing more basic to your liberty than the right to defend your own life (which I feel Trayvon was doing, btw). That anyone would be legally required to retreat from an assailant isn't just stupid but it's evil. It's a fundamental violation of a natural right.
I want to stress, again, that I only said I would be reluctant to convict Zimmerman because of the bad actors trying to use this case to violate MY rights. I'm really sympathetic to Trayvon and I think he had every right to kick Zimmerman's ass. BTW, retreat laws like NY has would criminalize Trayvon for defending himself from a crazy stalker.
The bottom line is that the law should make common sense. Anything that runs counter to that is unjust. It's as simple as that.
Just typing this to you gets me very pissed about Zimmerman and these political assholes that have used the unjust death of an innocent person to try and attack the rights of all Americans. That is extremely convoluted. If we ever have another revolution, I hope those bastards are the first to get 'justice'. If history is any indication, it will come to that and THAT is why our framers gave us the second amendment.
Really appreciate your well thought out posts, Disciple.
Shitstorm, the more you write and explain, the better I understand you.
As I believe I said (if not, I should have), the duty is to ATTEMPT to retreat. Obviously, it is not always practical. The law does not require you to suffer injury - simply to TRY to extradite yourself. The law is written this way to distinguish between self defense and "mutually agreed upon combat". All other things being equal (such as two survivors), the one who doesn't get arrested is the one who says "I told him I didn't want to fight. I tried to get away but he attacked me. That's why he's lying there in a bloody puddle."
I agree its likely that Martin was merely attempting to defend himself. HE wasn't stalking anyone. If I had been in his shoes, I'd have ripped Zimmerman's arm off and beaten him with it until he offered no further resistance. Zimmerman was Neighborhood Watch. Nobody whose authority I (or, I would argue, Martin) had any obligation to acknowledge.
[Kip, IMHO, it doesn't matter how many times Martin smashed Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. The answer to the "who was the aggressor" question is the same as "who was following whom and who had the right to feel threatened".]
I disagree with those who hold to strict constuctionism. The Constituion of the United States is a living, breathing document that is meant to be consulted centuries after it was written. Myself, I am a social progressive and staunch defender of civil liberties. Also, I believe that Govermnment is too big and expanding its powers to our detriment daily. People who say that Government is too big but that there should be laws about what consenting adults can and cannot do are simply schizophrenic, in my view.
That being said, I agree with your assessment of where the country stands today. Do people realize that the Patriot Act had been bound together in one package mere HOURS before the vote was held and that NOBODY, I MEAN NOBODY, knew what was in it (except the masterminds) when it was voted upon and passed with great acclaim and fanfare? Like pigs celebrating the barbeque.
Grounds for Impeachment and Recall, IMHO.
I also agree with your assessment that our Founding Fathers would have looked upon our current state of affairs with great dismay. I believe it possible, if not likely, that there would be a call for a Second American Revolution. Make no mistake. Unless the Powers That Be allow change to occur peacefully (which means: 1. Them giving up power - not very likely unless they are staring down the barrels of an armed populace or 2. The Peaceful Revolution already at work becoming more effective [here I note the blind fools who laugh at the Wall Street Movement - how foolish did the Boston Tea Party seem to the British and their running dogs?] ) there WILL be another Revolution. Probably Worldwide. Perhaps in my lifetime.
Now that I understand what you meant by the "People", I wholeheartedly agree. People who have not read J.J. Rouseau's "The Social Contract" should do so - it is the basis of Western democracy - a contract of rights and responsibilities of both the government and the governed, who voluntarily empower the goverment to act on our collective behalf. However, appealing to the people is not a practical solution to immediate problems since we/they have so far to go to get mobilized. I appreciate an idealist, though, Shitstorm.
Lastly, I thank you for your compliment. See you on the barricades.
And to all a good night.