(07-12-2013, 02:43 PM)Duchess Wrote: [ -> ]
I'm thinking a lot about LC right now. She started this thread. I wonder if her opinion would have changed. She would have loved the trial & some of the theatrics.
LC was turned off by Jesse and Al. But she nailed it about George thinking he was LE. And that George would have a problem if he chased after the kid. That's big problem for the big fat liar.
Don't know, but I still think he will skate on murder2. Man1 would be my guess If they feel they have to convict on something
(07-12-2013, 03:04 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ]Self-defense law and SYG are NOT synonymous.
It surprised me last year when O'Mara made some public statements indicating that he wasn't going for SYG, but standard self defense.
His explanations as to why were never really clear to me. After reviewing the differences, I wasn't so surprised:
-He wanted to shift the burden of proof from the defense to the prosecution?
-He didn't want Zimmerman to be subject to cross-examination?
-He felt that a jury was a better bet than a judge and didn't want to show his cards to the state in the event that he failed getting SYG immunity and had to go to trial anyway?
-Maybe all of the above
Earlier this year when he confirmed that Zimmerman wouldn't be seeking SYG immunity from prosecution and waived the SYG immunity hearing, O'Mara successfully argued a motion to Judge Nelson that the SYG law doesn't technically prevent him from merging a SYG hearing with the murder trial; the defense had that option available.
I think O'Mara would have used that option had he felt the state's case was stronger during its case-in-chief.
If George gets convicted, he and his attorneys may have some big regrets in not choosing the SYG route. Gamble.
JMO and to the best of my understanding.
(07-12-2013, 03:46 PM)SIXFOOTERsez Wrote: [ -> ]If they feel they have to convict on something
And that right there is the thing. If the jury dont do the job they said they could do and come to a decision strictly on the facts that were presented at trial, they may convict just because they FEEL they must.
(07-12-2013, 03:04 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2013, 02:53 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ]But, if I had it, I'd bet money against a Murder 2 verdict.
Near the end of jury instructions, Nelson went over justifiable use of deadly force (not sure of the statute number though).
Before O'mara's closing, I'd have thought 2nd Degree Murder would have been a Skittle supporter fantasy.
Not now.
As to Nelson's jury instructions, I'll need to read a transcript as I didn't hear any of 776.
I now understand Dan Abram's point in his article: Self-defense law and SYG are NOT synonymous.
The State wanted the initial aggressor statute included in the jury instructions. The Judge *denied* without giving a reason other than the defense doesn't want it, so I'm not giving it. So in that way, Abrams was right. I just still believe that it should have been included, but the State got that part across very well and the instruction may have just further confounded the issue.
But the "SYG" statute was given to the jury, no two ways about it. As the law to be considered during deliberations.
(07-12-2013, 03:49 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ]JMO and to the best of my understanding.
You nailed it!
I believe Adub's steadfast belief of Zim being a big, fat liar, Guy emphasizing this in his closing and the fact that the DOJ has been preparing for racial unrest in Seminole County for over a year will almost guarantee a conviction.
I don't believe the law's ambiguity regarding SYG hearings (or for that matter any other inconsistencies with SYG) will be addressed if Zim is convicted.
As this went to trial, tubbie is now exposed to civil suits, too.
Who new that justifiable use of force is not the same thing as self defense or SYG?
(07-12-2013, 03:51 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2013, 03:46 PM)SIXFOOTERsez Wrote: [ -> ]If they feel they have to convict on something
And that right there is the thing. If the jury dont do the job they said they could do and come to a decision strictly on the facts that were presented at trial, they may convict just because they FEEL they must.
Silly O'Mara told the jury not to use their common sense. Not to connect the dots. Silly man. He was hating on the circumstantial evidence. Has nothing to do with how one FEELS, it is reason and common sense.
(07-12-2013, 04:00 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2013, 03:49 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: [ -> ]JMO and to the best of my understanding.
Who new that justifiable use of force is not the same thing as self defense or SYG?
They are the very same god damn statute. The jury did not get a "self defense" statute, or a "SYG" statute because they do not exist. The law in Florida is justifiable use of force. Commonly referred to as "SYG". Are you being obtuse on purpose?
(07-12-2013, 04:06 PM)Adub Wrote: [ -> ]They are the very same god damn statute. The jury did not get a "self defense" statute, or a "SYG" statute because they do not exist. The law in Florida is justifiable use of force. Commonly referred to as "SYG". Are you being obtuse on purpose?
They aren't the same.
Abrams . . . an attorney stated so, too.
Though each allow for the use of deadly force, each has unique (albeit overlapping) criteria for usage.
In fact, you said it yourself when you rightly pointed out that SYG
cannot be claimed in a domestic violence situation.
But a spouse can use deadly force to protect their life or the lives of their children.
I'm not being obtuse.
I take the time to read what you posted and . . . well . . . it supports my position.
(07-12-2013, 02:35 PM)F.U. Dont ask again Wrote: [ -> ]Well after reading this entire thread and watching what little I could of the trial, I am still unsure weather or not Z is guilty. The facts just did not seam to come out in this case. The prosecution did not seam to have a strong case and it showed. Guilty or not guilty, I just don't know. I do think that he will walk though.
He is guilty of murder. There was no reason on god's green earth for Zimmerman to have fucked with Trayvon's head. I'm surrounded by teens on a daily basis, juvenile delinquents. Not one of them deserves to be shot dead while walking home. By a fucking stranger. This shit happens between two individuals that know each other and FEEL mutual animosity. This crime was one-sided. Trayvon did not have clue.
(07-12-2013, 04:15 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2013, 04:06 PM)Adub Wrote: [ -> ]They are the very same god damn statute. The jury did not get a "self defense" statute, or a "SYG" statute because they do not exist. The law in Florida is justifiable use of force. Commonly referred to as "SYG". Are you being obtuse on purpose?
They aren't the same.
Abrams . . . an attorney stated so, too.
Though each allow for the use of deadly force, each has unique (albeit overlapping) criteria for usage.
In fact, you said it yourself when you rightly pointed out that SYG cannot be claimed in a domestic violence situation.
But a spouse can use deadly force to protect their life or the lives of their children.
I'm not being obtuse.
I take the time to read what you posted and . . . well . . . it supports my position.
Whatever girlfriend. The Honorable Judge Nelson read the "SYG" statute to the jurors. Why the fuck would she do that if there was a simple self-defense statute?
(07-12-2013, 04:31 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2013, 04:20 PM)Adub Wrote: [ -> ]The jury did not get a "self defense" statute, or a "SYG" statute because they do not exist. The law in Florida is justifiable use of force. Commonly referred to as "SYG".
The Honorable Judge Nelson read the "SYG" statute to the jurors. Why the fuck would she do that if there was a simple self-defense statute?
(07-10-2013, 02:33 AM)Adub Wrote: [ -> ]SYG does not apply to domesticated partners. Read the statute carefully.
If not "SYG", then what?
You got me there because I do not know what the fuck you are talking about. Score 1 for Tiki!
Evidence that wasn't presented...
Unless I missed it, the prosecution chose not to play Zimmerman's previous 911 calls for the jury, and the defense chose not to focus on Trayvon's marijuana use, even though both sides fought successfully for the right to get those points in front of a jury.
I know there are a lot of admissible witnesses and evidence that never get used at trial, but it surprised me that the previous 911 calls weren't played for the jury to bolster the state's contention that Zimmerman's state of mind was skewed and that caused him to profile, follow and kill Trayvon Martin. Maybe the prosecution decided it was too risky and would end up bolstering the defense's claim that George was just a concerned neighbor, since none of those calls resulted in a confrontation?
Regarding the THC, totally irrelevant anyway, IMO. I think the defense was smart not to bring it in - it could have backfired in cross and/or with a state's rebuttal witness and in the eyes of the jury. And, the state might have motioned to get George's meds introduced if the defense had gone in that direction?
Just speculating and curious if anyone else has ideas.
(07-12-2013, 04:44 PM)BlueTiki Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2013, 04:36 PM)Adub Wrote: [ -> ]You got me there because I do not know what the fuck you are talking about. Score 1 for Tiki!
http://mockforums.net/thread-10266-page-14.html POST #183
Please knock off the "Score" shit -or- join me in Fight Club.
Would that Fight Club be in the relative safety of LC's Cell Block?
(07-12-2013, 04:48 PM)Adub Wrote: [ -> ]Would that Fight Club be in the relative safety of LC's Cell Block?
I've been trying to figure out the nuances of Florida's self defense vs. SYG laws (if there are differences). I wouldn't attempt to describe it any further except to say it seems SYG is a sub-set (for lack of a better term) of self defense.
http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-...force.html
Carry on.
(07-12-2013, 04:48 PM)Adub Wrote: [ -> ]Would that Fight Club be in the relative safety of LC's Cell Block?
No!
FU and CN got into it within this thread, Duchess reminded them to conduct themselves appropriately within the Cell Block and HotD started a Fight Club in the Members Only Section.