pfif: i have asked this before but didn't see any responses. does anyone know if there is a likelihood of cp and sw being tried again for the same murder but with different charges if they are found not guilty in this trial?
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they cannot be tried criminally for these murders again. it would be double jeopardy.
civil/wrongful death? yes sure. it can be attempted.
the bar of proof is lower than beyond reasonable doubt.
no the state can't come in and say well we'll try them on manslaughter now.
the Feds could. they could try them for violation of victims' civil rights.
^ that sucks everyone just pray to god they come out with more evidence to sink they sickos i do not want them walking my town again.
Civil court means civil remedies, i.e. money, not jail. Good luck collecting anything.
If the state knew it had a weak case it shouldn't have gone for death. I think that kind of hubris -- saying it's a slam dunk and that you have enough black and white, clear evidence to ask for someone's life, and then it turns out you don't - is imo what backfired in the casey anthony matter. Had they gone in with a slightly lower bar, I think they would have had a different outcome.
I just talked to Mustang! He has been at the Pettaway trial this AM. He is not going to it this PM. He gave his seat to another family (his) member. This AM it was all about forensics. He wanted me to say that they have DNA on 36 possible suspects. That includes everybody that has been mentioned here on Mock. That would include T.W. and A.C. , etc. There was also DNA on tape on Johnny's wrists,in the pockets of Johnny's sweats and ankles(tape I think he said). 3 of the samples are from unknown females. He said that DNA is very portable, and one that was from hair could have gotten there from the floor of a restaurant just to give an example. I will say that at this point, he doesn't feel very optimistic about Pettaways trial. IF, he is able to get into the Williams trail, which he finds unlikely he will attend that this PM.
(07-25-2012, 02:01 PM)Older Than Dirt Wrote: [ -> ]I just talked to Mustang! He has been at the Pettaway trial this AM. He is not going to it this PM. He gave his seat to another family (his) member. This AM it was all about forensics. He wanted me to say that they have DNA on 36 possible suspects. That includes everybody that has been mentioned here on Mock. That would include T.W. and A.C. , etc. There was also DNA on tape on Johnny's wrists,in the pockets of Johnny's sweats and ankles(tape I think he said). 3 of the samples are from unknown females. He said that DNA is very portable, and one that was from hair could have gotten there from the floor of a restaurant just to give an example. I will say that at this point, he doesn't feel very optimistic about Pettaways trial. IF, he is able to get into the Williams trail, which he finds unlikely he will attend that this PM.
Dag. I'm not optimistic either, but sure hope I'm wrong. But mustang is getting the vibe in the room...
From a personal standpoint, I am very fearful for what could happen to some of these people, if they are not incarcerated ! And. what about Eric Yingling? It scares the shit out of me! ps: My conversation with Mustsang was before 1 PM . I have had several phone calls that slowed me down. And, I can't do more that one thing at a time !
Soothsayer, I think Mustang is viewing this from a juror's standpoint!
why be fearful? if these people chose the hoodrat life, then they take their chances on the street. who gives a flying fuck? they're criminal trash. not decent citizens. let them wipe each other out.
(07-25-2012, 10:08 AM)misshmarie23 Wrote: [ -> ]^^ wouldn't T.W tie A.P (A.G) into this that is her kids dad. what relationship did A.C have with A.P?
A.c dated a.p for a year or so
(07-25-2012, 02:01 PM)soothsayer Wrote: [ -> ]Civil court means civil remedies, i.e. money, not jail. Good luck collecting anything.
If the state knew it had a weak case it shouldn't have gone for death. I think that kind of hubris -- saying it's a slam dunk and that you have enough black and white, clear evidence to ask for someone's life, and then it turns out you don't - is imo what backfired in the casey anthony matter. Had they gone in with a slightly lower bar, I think they would have had a different outcome.
These guys won't walk in my opinion. Lets not forget the murder is ONE of the charges; not all. They may be found not guilty for murder, but then you have the kidnapping, and other charges listed (not 100% certain of the other listed charges so I'd rather not post till I verify the other charges)
(07-25-2012, 02:19 PM)Lady Cop Wrote: [ -> ]why be fearful? if these people chose the hoodrat life, then they take their chances on the street. who gives a flying fuck? they're criminal trash. not decent citizens. let them wipe each other out.
Damn right! I want to be careful saying this, but I'll just remind everyone that we've heard a lot of "promises" from certain people assuring the world that these guys at best won't walk far. I know its wrong but...yeah
As for portable DNA. Not shit its portable but at some time you need take a step back and be reasonable.
I mean what if....again what if; this hasn't happened in this case, they found someone's semen at the scene? What would be the excuse there?
"Well as I'm sure we all know, some dudes just know how to shoot it. Gotta be careful these days, you never know when one of these sloppy rookies go firing into the wind. Keep those windows closed folks."
From the Lucas County Dockets 23rd July 2012 Motion to Reconsider
here's a couple of excerpts:- The first person Samuel Williams spoke to on phone from jail was Cameo Pettaway. Williams tells Pettaway "They got me down here on two murders, you hear me?" Williams further advised "Cam, I need you to get in my drawers bro - I need you to get - I need - you know what time it is bro I need all that gone." Date 22nd Sept., 2011.
Over the phone again from jail: "But I can tell you this, but don't tell anyone else. You hear me? Only tell Cam. Er, tell Cam but don't tell nobody else. When they brought me down to L C Jail, and they had me in that room, they had a search warrant for my DNA. So they swabbed my mouth. So I don't know,so maybe they're waiting to get the tests back. You know what I'm saying? (emphasis added) Date 25th Sept., 2011.
Pettaway Now gets arrested Oct 11 2011 and telephones Michelle Wainwright mother of 3 cameo kids! during the call Wainright suggests to Cam "it's a possibility (you) could have threw (sic) a cigarette butt out that way" In response, Mr. Pettaway states, "Nah, I didn't throw cigarette butts out that way, fool." Pettaway then states.
"Ain't no cigarette butts out that way, and you need to shut your damn mouth talking like that on the phone. You like, are you retarded or something? Don't talk like that on the phone. Period. I mean there ain't nothing you saying wrong but don't talk like that over the phone. (inaudible) recording and surveilling everything we could possibly be saying." Date 14th Oct., 2011.
Samuel Williams calls Steven Pettaway April 19th 2012 using a different PIN no he instructs Starla to call Rick James and it is determined that Rick James is the brother of Cameo Steven Pettaway. During the conversation Williams instructs Steven to tell his bro Cameo "don't go for that bluff tactic at the end man - this shit's too close, Williams also states that he just wants to know that for sure man - they said he's (Cameo) been crashing out up there", and to tell Cameo that Mr Williams is "solid-er(sic) than a mother fucking rock nigga" Steven Pettaway confirms that, "Ain't nobody doing nothing stupid, I know that."
They used other inmates PIN #s to deceive LE, but they got tripped up.
(07-25-2012, 02:35 PM)Aberlin Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2012, 02:01 PM)soothsayer Wrote: [ -> ]Civil court means civil remedies, i.e. money, not jail. Good luck collecting anything.
If the state knew it had a weak case it shouldn't have gone for death. I think that kind of hubris -- saying it's a slam dunk and that you have enough black and white, clear evidence to ask for someone's life, and then it turns out you don't - is imo what backfired in the casey anthony matter. Had they gone in with a slightly lower bar, I think they would have had a different outcome.
These guys won't walk in my opinion. Lets not forget the murder is ONE of the charges; not all. They may be found not guilty for murder, but then you have the kidnapping, and other charges listed (not 100% certain of the other listed charges so I'd rather not post till I verify the other charges)
Ok, good! Keep talkin me off the ledge. Those jailhouse tapes are encouraging, even if they still don't exactly prove whodunnit.
Word on the streets here in Toledo are Johnny dad was making threating gestures to a.c and one of cameos baby's mother and the statement someone had made earlier about a.c being Italian she is Japanese and white. .... and a.c is known for being a snitch and a sneaky rat would not surprise me if she cut a deal for her unknown DNA to never be exposed
(07-25-2012, 03:01 PM)NightOwl Wrote: [ -> ]From the Lucas County Dockets 23rd July 2012 Motion to Reconsider
They used other inmates PIN #s to deceive LE, but they got tripped up.
Wow! So, why no conspiracy charges? This motion keeps talking of co-conspirators. And citing case law for co-conspirators. I wondered right after the arrests why they weren't charged with conspiracy to commit a crime.
But anyways, WOW!
Ditto, I think that I had posted about using somebody's pin . These people are as dumb as a box of rocks, but very street wise and stupid!
this was sent to me with permission to post:
feel free to post this if you like. I had the opportunity to attend the Samuel Williams trial Friday, Monday morning, and this (Tuesday) afternoon. First, the trials are absolutely open to the public, just arrive early to reserve a seat (this is what I have done all days). Second, the cigarette butt puts both Williams and Pettaway at the scene of the murder because there was testimony that Lisa and her parents were meticulous about keeping the house clean. Lisa would never have left a cig butt inside the house, she would have cleaned it up immediately, obviously she never had that chance. Also, Lisa did not allow anyone to smoke in the house. She herself walked outside to smoke. The murderers were the only ones who clearly did not follow her rule. And, under what circumstances would these two grown thug men share a cigarette?? --when they are in the middle of committing a murder. Third, Sam and Cam have not rolled on each other or anyone else, because, in my opinion, they are the ones who killed Johnny and Lisa. And I think Sam killed Johnny and Cam killed Lisa. They are both in it until the end.
On Monday, I caught the testimony of Mary Beth Straub, Jeff Straub, Michael Dominguez, and Tiffany Williams. What struck me most in watching the Straubs was how attractive they both are, how composed they were, and how sad it is that their lovely daughter was murdered. Their testimony and the testimony of Michael Dominguez has been covered within this thread and I don't have much else to add. Tiffany Williams came off as sincere and honest, to me. She said she heard Johnny saying "who the fuck are you?". This statement almost did not come in because defense argued it was hearsay. Defense wants to point the finger at all the other people who could have possible motives for hurting Johnny, but Johnny knows those people and would not ask "who are you?". Tiffany tries calling them back many many times, she broke down and started crying when she described trying to get a hold of them. Tiffany admitted she lied to police when she said she was going to the store / carryout. She actually went to buy Perocets, and said she was too embarrassed to admit that at first. One inconsistency I noted - in Williams's trial, Tiffany testified that she and Zack went to MisQ after the police left her leave the scene that night, she said a couple of hours later, Maytee called her phone and told her Johnny and Lisa were dead. Apparently she said a Watson brother called and told her when she testified in Bates's courtroom (?). On Cross, Thebes basically tried to make her story of events that night very confusing to the jury, and suggested she had set up a meeting between Johnny and perspective marijuana buyers, and that she knew something had gone wrong, and that's why she delayed calling the police. Tiffany said that Johnny and AP were on bad terms because Johnny slept with Alex Cousino who is AP's ex. Tiffany used to live with Zack Burkett, then moved in with AP's mom, now she is back living with Zack.
Today, I heard a jailhouse call from Williams to Pettaway's brother, I believe, under a different inmate's pin number. It was very hard to make out what the two were saying, because of their style of speaking and terms they use. I got most of it, but know that the older jurors could not have understood much of anything. I know the jurors can listen to the tape as much as they want because it was admitted into evidence, but hopefully someone can transcribe it for them because it was just that difficult to catch the few incriminating remarks Sam made. Specifically, I heard him say, "it was hot in there for a minute binding him up," and "i haven't lost any sleep thinking about it," and "we're almost off the hook." In general it seemed like a conversation of Sam assuring Pettaway's brother that he was not going to roll on Cameo.
Then came the jaillhouse snitch, Eric. He testified that Sam admitted to killing Johnny and Lisa and told Eric very specific details of the crime. Things that I did not learn until they were brought out in court. And I have read every page in this thread. He said that Williams said he will never forget the sound of lisa breathing in and out of the bag dying ;( He said that Lisa ran into her bedroom and locked the door and that Cameo kicked it in and forced her downstairs. He said they made Johnny and Lisa face each other and put a bag over Lisa's head suffocating her until she passed out, trying to get Johnny to tell them the location of the safe. The third time they did this to Lisa, she died. Then they smoked a cigarette while deciding what to do with Johnny. During that time, according to Eric, Eric Taylor, was inside killing Johnny. He said Eric Taylor, Sam, Cam, and Amy Teneyck were all there, Amy drove. Eric claimed he obtained no benefit for testifying for the state. He was sent to work release earlier but he was only sentenced to 10 months anyway, so not much of a break. Especially considering these guys may try to murder him for this testimony. The problem with his testimony, to me, was that it was inaccurate. There were things he said that ended up not being true, so I don't know what the jury will take from him.
I also caught the testimony of a gentleman from the BCI. Saw photos from the crime scene. Not pleasant. I feel so much sadness for these two kids and their families. Saw a pic of the infamous cig butt, located inside the house in the hall between the kitchen and the door to the garage. (this is an example of where Eric, the jailhouse witness, was wrong, he said Sam said they smoked the cigarette in the garage).
Unfortunately, I missed Alexandra Cousino. She is the link between Johnny and Lisa and Sam and Cam. I heard that she said she was very close friends with the two defendants. That at the very least gives Williams and Pettaway knowledge of Johnny living at the Straubs, and knowledge that the parents were out of town. Perhaps it gives motive, also. Cousino was angry at Johnny about the bad car deal, she tells Sam and Cam about that and the opportunity to steal drugs and a safe, and they go to the house that dreadful night. I don't think Cousino has given her DNA. And I'd be willing to bet it's her unidentified DNA on the duct tape around Johnny's ankles. I guess that text she wrote isn't enough to give them probable cause for a search warrant for her DNA??
That's all I can remember or think is significant at this point. I will try to attend some more of the trials this week. It looks like they are moving much faster than expected and may have closing arguments at the end of the week.
(07-25-2012, 03:34 PM)Adub Wrote: [ -> ] (07-25-2012, 03:01 PM)NightOwl Wrote: [ -> ]From the Lucas County Dockets 23rd July 2012 Motion to Reconsider
They used other inmates PIN #s to deceive LE, but they got tripped up.
Wow! So, why no conspiracy charges? This motion keeps talking of co-conspirators. And citing case law for co-conspirators. I wondered right after the arrests why they weren't charged with conspiracy to commit a crime.
But anyways, WOW!
Why weren't these phone calls played in court???? I don't get it. That's a lot different than the one that was played on the news!
(07-25-2012, 07:54 AM)misshmarie23 Wrote: [ -> ]in t.w sons dads death sorry fast type should of previewed first
Wow, thank you for that. She sounds like a psychopath.