Mock

I am having a problem imagining a pregnant woman and a minor
overpowering Johnny and Lisa.

I never wrote that they did. I think ( IMO ) they bragged about being there the night before and how nice the area was and helped set it up to be robbed and it went bad. IMO I feel there were maybe 2 or 3 men. I dont know what happened after the call. If there was a call. All of us will know eventually.... We can only speculate. We cant help it. This is an unimaginable crime!! It will come out that alot of the people in the group of friends had gang ties. Mark my words...

(02-10-2011, 02:13 PM)CarrotJuice Wrote: [ -> ]Two points for you internet sleuths:

http://toledoblade.com/article/20110202/.../102020307

2. Alternatively, back in posts 29, 35, 38, 41, 53, and 62, member "Unknown," who seems to know the participants in this better than anyone on this board, repeatedly refers to a Ms. T and Mr. Z. The former's identity has been confirmed, but the latter's was not even mentioned again until Johnny's mother posted on the RIP Johnny facebook page about how she hates "Tiffany and Zach." I did a quick search but can't find anyone with that name on facebook but perhaps someone else can.

I agree with you about "UNKNOWN" being a great source of info. Wish he would chime in again.

IMO--"T" was expecting JC to pick her up on that same trip to pickup Lisa at TGIF. When she realized he wasn't showing she called him to ask when he was gonna be by to get her as planned. Instead he answers his cell already being back at Lisas home and surprises the perps who were already there waiting. This trrows a wrench into "T"s plans because she was supposed to keep him away long enough for the crime to be done before they all returned to Lisas home. The "Holy Shit" moment was realized by "T" and new stratagies had to put inplace to guarantee the outcome to benefit all the perps. Being as they don't think fast on their feet I think they made enough mistakes to ALL get caught for what was gonna be an easy score if all had gone as planned.

This minor is not some grade school kid with a lunch box. He is a big boy.

I know "unknown" he will not be chiming in for a while. Sorry I talked to him yesterday. He is reading these post though.

(02-10-2011, 02:38 PM)Methusala Wrote: [ -> ]The additional information from the uncle creates a whole new possible scenario, I agree.

If LS was still in her TGIF uniform, and if even the upstairs bedrooms were ransacked, it is entirely possible that the intruders were already in the home and had been through the house when JC and LS arrived; that JC may have been genuinely surprised and his reaction on the phone was as he and LS came into the house and found the intruders, not the other way around, in which case JC may not have been complicit after all.

Then the fight and struggle may have occurred.

It is unlikely that the intruders would have stayed around to search the upstairs after tying up and suffocating JC and LS. They would have wanted to get out of there.

This of course does not exclude the possibility that the intruders may have tried to force LS to reveal where more valuables could be accessed and found, before killing them and leaving.

Maybe it was expected that they would have gone to pick up Tiffany first, after leaving TGIF and before going home, which would have given the intruders more time at the house; and perhaps LS insisted on going home first to shower and change, which was not expected by whomever planned the robbery.

And the robbers may have let themselves in with the key. Maytee said she had watched it being removed and used many times. Who knows how many people had seen it used, especially if JC and LS had had others over on previous nights?

We are in TOTAL AGREEMENT....This is the simplist expaination and after all we are dealing with "Simpletons"

I agree something happened and it isnt what T said. I think it is going to be soon. Very soon.

Has anyone figured out how Johnny's mom had seen people use
the key many times?

There has been some questions about what cousin was at the crime scene. I believe (but am not 100% sure) the mother said something along the lines of "the father went over there with our cousin, he is in the military." Meaning that they picked the cousin because of the fact they thought the cousin would be better equipped to deal with the situation.

(The cousin that is in the military, is the one that was lifted to the window.) Of course I easily could have misheard he instead of she, but I remember the military part of the quote.

"Straub and Clarke both died of asphyxiation and are thought to have been killed some time between 1:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m."

This is one of the most substantial pieces of the puzzle we have received as of to date. Here is the revised timeline I have put together:
_____________________________________________

Sunday @ 11:00 pm - John and "Tiff" talk on the phone. Tiff states John plans on picking her up and is about to head out the door.

Shortly after the prior phone call -Tiff calls John back to tell him she is going to the store so he should wait a minute and overhears the phone dropping and along with the comment "Bro what are you doing"

From ~11:05pm to ~1:00am - Tiff attempts to reach both John and Lisa by phoning them and texting them. Tiff says she drives by the house and the lights are on. One statement places Tiff at the front door to ring the doorbell but there is no answer. Tiff calls one of her friends, who calls another friend who in turn calls JC's mother.

One would think this would happen one call right after the other, in a quick way. After someone tells you they think JC and LS have home intruders in the house, you don't ask how their day has been going.

Monday @ 1:03 am - The friend of Tiff's calls John's mother and explains what happened (the mother, in an interview said "why would you wait until 1:03 to call me?). John's mother calls Tiff and Tiff goes over her story.

1:21 am - John's mother calls 911 to report what happened. She also states that Tiff has picked up John's father and they are driving to the house.

1:28 am - Sheriff deputies arrive at the house and find no probable cause to enter. The exterior doors are locked and the the windows are undamaged. They cannot see into the house. They stay on sight for 11 minutes. The murders have already been committed by 1:28, the killer's car(s) were not noticed in the driveway or around the house by the Sheriff's deputies.

The time of death is most likely between 1:00am and 1:28am. The only other way I see the time of death going beyond that is if the plastic bags used contained a very large quantity of air (55 gallon bags), and the killers planned on the couple being alive for a while (to have someone come back and save them). The use of large bags in highly unlikely, and it is most certainly the case that the killers left the house prior to the first police showing up.

Tiff would have seen the killers car(s) present if they were in the house when she showed up earlier. The killers murdered the couple around 1am (or a few minutes earlier). The time of death means that it was after Tiff claims she checked on the house.

I think this is a substantial piece of evidence that points toward the fact that Tiff lied about checking on the house. Her creditability is now gone, I will leave you to draw your own conclusions. It appears that JC and LS were killed on the way out the door, and not any earlier.

Before the TOD was released, I thought that the murders were probably out of the house shortly after 10pm, I did not think the murders would have waited three hours to kill the couple.

This is just my opinion combined with the facts.

Sun

Quote:day @ 11:00 pm - John and "Tiff" talk on the phone. Tiff states John plans on picking her up and is about to head out the door.

Shortly after the prior phone call -Tiff calls John back to tell him she is going to the store so he should wait a minute and overhears the phone dropping and along with the comment "Bro what are you doing"

From ~11:05pm to ~1:00am - Tiff attempts to reach both John and Lisa by phoning them and texting them. Tiff says she drives by the house and the lights are on. One statement places Tiff at the front door to ring the doorbell but there is no answer. Tiff calls one of her friends, who calls another friend who in turn calls JC's mother.

One would think this would happen one call right after the other, in a quick way. After someone tells you they think JC and LS have home intruders in the house, you don't ask how their day has been going

See, my opinion is that the phone call, the picking up, the driving by the house, the hearing "who are you" is ALL bullshit. I think Tiff is knee deep alright, and IF she called Johnny's phone, they didn't talk cuz whatever was going down had already started. EVERYTHING Tiff says is conjecture..HER word ONLY. No one can dispute it at this point, and let's face it, what SHE said has certainly slanted the investigation cuz everyone was using her statements to support a home invasion cuz that's what she WANTED people to think. We know Lisa had on her uniform still, and having a daughter that was a waitress, I completely get it when Lisa's parents say that the FIRST thing she did upon entering home was to strip off the uniform. My daughter would start stripping as she walked in the house cuz their clothes STINK. I think the killers were either waiting for them, or followed in right behind them. Tiff waited till 1:03 to call somebody (establishing that she couldn't possibly be involved cuz she was "concerned") She waited till 1 to call someone because she knew at that time they were already dead. They murdered J & L for MONEY, REVENGE, or JEALOUSY. They then staged the burglary, tossing the house and taking a jar of coins and 2 20's. Robbers do NOT just take a jar of coins, not to mention they didn't take Lisa's purse which was probably stuffed with tips that she just earned.
I firmly believe that they were killed probably within an hour of entering the house...making them dead by midnite. Johnny's mom stated that their faces "wouldn't move", or they couldn't move their faces and that they were cold, suggesting rigor had set in (because of the immovability of their faces)
I am in medicine in this town and I have absolutely no faith in the coroners office here, nor in the Sheriffs dept.

The local media here has been extremely quiet, as has LE, almost like the vicious murdesr of 2 young people in a predominantly white upper middle class neighborhood is status quo. It is NOT. This should be all over the place but at least the print media is suspiciously mum. That leads me to believe LE has asked for a new blackout as they want nothing leaked until they have arrest warrants...then all shit will hit the fan.

of course, this is JMHO

I have been creeping on this forum for days, and decided to put in the little bit that I know.
I met Lisa when I was a freshman in high school. She truly was the girl that I wanted to be. She was bold, had many friends, she was very pretty, and was known as a bit of a party girl.
Though I lost contact with her over the years, she wasnt completely out of my life, as she lived with one of my best friends up until November/December. (I wanna say late November but I'm not certain)
So Lisa was living with my good friend, E. They had been best friends since grade school and got an apartment together. E soon came to have problems with Johnny, who, as many have speculated, was a sketchy drug dealer. Maytee was very, very wrong when she said her son had no enemies.
E often complained about Johnny showing up at the apartment, uninvited, even when Lisa wasn't home, often bringing his "sketchy" friends. Eventually, she told Lisa that Johnny wasn't allowed over anymore.
There was an incident which resulted in the two girls terminating their lease, which is when Lisa returned to live with her parents in Holland. Johnny had showed up, though not allowed. Somehow an argument broke out between him and E. She told him he needed to leave and he punched her in the stomach. Now E is a 100 pound girl, but she said that he punched her so hard that it took her a minute to be able to steady herself and catch her breath. Johnny then left, the girls put the chain lock on, and he tried to get back in. When he gave up, he slammed the door so hard that it jammed into the frame, and E's dad had to come take it off the hinges in order to let them out of the apartment.
Love Lisa, but she stood up for Johnny and E couldn't hang with it anymore, so they broke off their lease.

E isn't the only one of Lisa's friends that didn't want to be around Johnny. From what it seems of my friends that remained in contact with her, most of the people she hung out with were his friends. Alot of her more "tactful" friends didn't want to see her when he was around. And he came around whenever he pleased.

(02-10-2011, 05:24 PM)Countryside_Belle Wrote: [ -> ]KIP- in my research, I found him with only 2 photos. (B.D.) on fb, and one is of his manly pumped up muscles, the other is a preppy shot of him. He's got some of the same friends as Tiffany..., as well as his ex, Lisa- they have mutual friends.
And btw, it was mentioned he "just" opened an account. While the activity shows he has done some basic editing to his fb profile very recently, and added a lot of friends the photos he added were from Jan. of this year, as well as one from Sept. if I am reading the date stamp right...
I can't wait to hear the DNA results!

can you tell us how to find his FB page or no? I'm just curious...I read his name in some other article on the web...but I can't find him on FB : (

(02-10-2011, 11:38 PM)jash Wrote: [ -> ]Sun

Quote:day @ 11:00 pm - John and "Tiff" talk on the phone. Tiff states John plans on picking her up and is about to head out the door.

Shortly after the prior phone call -Tiff calls John back to tell him she is going to the store so he should wait a minute and overhears the phone dropping and along with the comment "Bro what are you doing"

From ~11:05pm to ~1:00am - Tiff attempts to reach both John and Lisa by phoning them and texting them. Tiff says she drives by the house and the lights are on. One statement places Tiff at the front door to ring the doorbell but there is no answer. Tiff calls one of her friends, who calls another friend who in turn calls JC's mother.

One would think this would happen one call right after the other, in a quick way. After someone tells you they think JC and LS have home intruders in the house, you don't ask how their day has been going

See, my opinion is that the phone call, the picking up, the driving by the house, the hearing "who are you" is ALL bullshit. I think Tiff is knee deep alright, and IF she called Johnny's phone, they didn't talk cuz whatever was going down had already started. EVERYTHING Tiff says is conjecture..HER word ONLY. No one can dispute it at this point, and let's face it, what SHE said has certainly slanted the investigation cuz everyone was using her statements to support a home invasion cuz that's what she WANTED people to think. We know Lisa had on her uniform still, and having a daughter that was a waitress, I completely get it when Lisa's parents say that the FIRST thing she did upon entering home was to strip off the uniform. My daughter would start stripping as she walked in the house cuz their clothes STINK. I think the killers were either waiting for them, or followed in right behind them. Tiff waited till 1:03 to call somebody (establishing that she couldn't possibly be involved cuz she was "concerned") She waited till 1 to call someone because she knew at that time they were already dead. They murdered J & L for MONEY, REVENGE, or JEALOUSY. They then staged the burglary, tossing the house and taking a jar of coins and 2 20's. Robbers do NOT just take a jar of coins, not to mention they didn't take Lisa's purse which was probably stuffed with tips that she just earned.
I firmly believe that they were killed probably within an hour of entering the house...making them dead by midnite. Johnny's mom stated that their faces "wouldn't move", or they couldn't move their faces and that they were cold, suggesting rigor had set in (because of the immovability of their faces)
I am in medicine in this town and I have absolutely no faith in the coroners office here, nor in the Sheriffs dept.

The local media here has been extremely quiet, as has LE, almost like the vicious murdesr of 2 young people in a predominantly white upper middle class neighborhood is status quo. It is NOT. This should be all over the place but at least the print media is suspiciously mum. That leads me to believe LE has asked for a new blackout as they want nothing leaked until they have arrest warrants...then all shit will hit the fan.

of course, this is JMHO

Totally on board with your opinion Jash. Thanks for breaking it down

hello, welcome to Mock Allieayy~~

it's apparent Johnny wasn't a boy scout from what we have heard, and if you knew Lisa then you may well be right.

i do believe Johnny's associates were involved. so the victims' reputations are a factor.
its a tragedy of wasted lives all around. we're trying not to accuse anyone of anything until LE tells us something. but speculation and theories are good, and just that. there is so much gossip and mistruth going around that it's impossible to sort through. or even reply to.

thanks for joining Mock~~

Allie...Very informative and interesting information. Do you know why E did not press charges against Johnny for allegedly assaulting her? Also, did Lisa's parents know Johnny's background? Do you also know Lisa's ex boyfriend, and if so, what is your opinion on him?

what do you think of the theories that have been batted around?

Just a tidbit of info. It wouldn't be surprising that Tiffany would lie to the police because she was arrested back in October of 2010 for yep, you guess it, False information given to a Police Officer.

(02-11-2011, 12:19 AM)Wish.I.was.a.P.I Wrote: [ -> ]Just a tidbit of info. It wouldn't be surprising that Tiffany would lie to the police because she was arrested back in October of 2010 for yep, you guess it, False information given to a Police Officer.

do you have a link to that information/booking sheet/police report? and is it the same Tiffany?
thanks~